Who Eats What? 2 Organic VS Traditional

[Ripp]

First off I do not claim to be an expert or the pros/cons of organic farming. Most of my info comes from my Mother (feel free to ridicule, I can take it. She's a shrp lady!) who is a health nut, fairly well read, used to be a registered nurse, and has a broad circle of friends/colleagues to gleam info from.
A few years ago she mentioned to me a study she read about testing the Vit C content of FL oranges. The tests showed that the oranges tested had only trace amounts of Vit C. My reaftion was something along the lines of WTF it's an orange! The lack of vitamin content was attributed to soil depletion and the chemical fertilizers used. This is an example of the first reason to buy organic. Nutrient content is supposed to be (much in some situations) higher with organicly grown produce.

The second reason is the chemical content contained in things grown/raised in tradional methods. Who wants to injest a bunch of chemicals designed to kill various organisms? Well thats what you get with commercially farm products. The pesticides and fertilizers all have content lists you and I can't pronounce. Could these practices have someting to do with the dramatic increase in cancer over the last 100 years? Maybe.

And of course there is the environmental impact of all those chemical being applied to fields across the globe. The runoff from those fields end up in streams then rivers then....you get the idea. Ultimately not only do these chemicals show up in our drinking water but they damage all the ecological systems they contact on the way from fields to oceans.

Another less important thing that I can personally verify is taste! Some produce tastes noticebly better when grown with organic farming. Tomatoes and Bannanas are the two I can really notice a difference in. I've read that traditional bananna production is not a problem for the Earth and that the Vit content isn't really improved by organic farming but wow do the organics taste better! I suggest everybody who can try some organic Bs. They cost about double but so what that means 5 Bs cost $1.50 instead of $.75. Try them! You'll like it.

There are my thoughts on organics (ignoring meat I know, maybe it will come up in the discussion, but its more complicated and much more cost prohibitive at this time. At least in my area.) what are yours?

[DirtRagArt]

I think a big part of the reason organic products taste noticably better is because they are fresher. Without preservatives and genetic engineering, they have to be.

[Ripp]

Could be for some things. Bannanas fail fast no matter what, and I've not noticed any difference between the shelflife of Org vs Trd grown Bs. Either give me about 3-4 days where I'm willing to eat them. May be a bigger factor in other types of produce though.

[OTBSkinloss]

One good reason people get E-coli, is that most organic fertilizers, are manure. Rain or irrigation, happens, and the crap on the ground, gets splashed up onto the veggies.

[DirtRagArt]

Could be for some things. Bannanas fail fast no matter what, and I've not noticed any difference between the shelflife of Org vs Trd grown Bs. Either give me about 3-4 days where I'm willing to eat them. May be a bigger factor in other types of produce though.
When I visited Jamaica, I was pretty blown away by the banannas—they almost taste like oranges. So do the grapefruit. All the produce on the island was amazing.

[phlatlander]

One good reason people get E-coli, is that most organic fertilizers, are manure. Rain or irrigation, happens, and the crap on the ground, gets splashed up onto the veggies.

Which is why we should be good raccoons and wash ALL of our food.

I look forward to the availability of [URL="http://foodshed.blogspot.com/2007/01/uglyripe-tomato-approval-invites-beauty.htmlUglyRipe[/URL] tomatoes now that they have approval to be sold outside of FL. Tomatoes seem to have gone the way of Red Delicious apples in that they concentrated on engineering them to be red and forgot to make them delicious. :mad:

[AM Radio]

I find it amusing that most people have no idea what the difference between organic and consumer based commercial produce is. I guess people like to pay more money for a poduct that has some green on the label. Last time I checked you can claim that a vegetable grown is "organic" as long as you did not need to obtain a liscense to purchase the chemicals to help produce it.
There is a reason that Wal-Mart is selling the____. Our best vendor is still the local farmer and education.

[rockyrider]

CBC Radio had a food scientist on last year commenting that tomatoes had been bred to be red and near solid to survive shipping, they don't ripen at all once you take them home, they go straight from being a red round solid object with almost no soft flesh, to being a fuzzy lump of mush in the fridge.

He also pointed out that you shouldn't keep tomatoes in the fridge, it kills the flavour.

He was promoting the eat local movement (http://www.eatlocal.net/) (whatever is grown within 100 mile radius from where you live). Of course there's some parts of the world where that would mean a pretty dull and restricted diet.

Red Delicious apples are terrific when quartered and a dusting of cinammon on them.

[phlatlander]

Our best vendor is still the local farmer and education.

And I have learned to beware of the guy that resells Costco produce down at my local farmer's market. I oughtta slash the tires on his Massey Fergusen.

[rockhound]

I think a big part of the reason organic products taste noticably better is because they are fresher. Without preservatives and genetic engineering, they have to be.

While I agree with you, you have to understand that genetic engineering has been ocurring for thousands of years on any crop humans cultivate. Even as far back as 5,000 years ago, they think corn had already been changed significantly by humans.

[DirtRagArt]

That's a good point, Rockhound.

[Cyclenaut]

I think it was Bicycling Magazine that printed a list a while ago about the foods that are best purchased as organics. Strawberries are among the worst offenders on the list of non-organic foods. Really, any food where chemicals/pesticides are sprayed directly on the flesh are the ones that should be bought as organics when available. Washing only gets the dirt off the outside, the remnants of the chemicals have already seeped into the pores of the fruit/veg skin. Foods with a peel are less susceptible to this.

NPR did a story last year sometime about organic farming and how easy it is to claim to be 'organic' while still doing most of the things that non-organic producers do. The story listed Horizon (dairy) as one of the worst offenders.

[fxdwhl]

Organic and locally grown are the way to go. We're all in the mindset that produce should be available whenever we want, wherever that may be. It's the dead of winter here and the produce selection at the grocery store is the same now as in summer. That's a bit fishy but that's what we're all used to. Eating seasonaly is ideal but not many do it, including me.

Large scale, global commercial farming is what makes this possible. High production levels can only be propped up by synthetic fertilezers that try to make up for lacking soil quality. Read the little sticker on the piece of fruit next time you eat it, it usually states which country it was grown in. I now tropical stuff like bananas is no brainer but stuff like apples are traveling from Venezuala. The produce we eat is usually more traveled than we are. I think the average distance from farm to table is about 1500 miles.

That said my wife and I try to buy as much organic stuff as our budget allows. I know there's more mark up but with less production quantity the price must be higher as well (volumn=lower price). We joined a CSA of sorts last year and were very happy with the quality. Unfortunatly they had some bad financial trouble and are most likely closing. However there are a number of farmers markets in our area that we'll frequent instead. Even if it's not organic I feel better supporting local agriculture.

[Lockwood]

We joined a CSA of sorts last year and were very happy with the quality. Unfortunatly they had some bad financial trouble and are most likely closing.

Covered Bridge Produce? We were with them, too, until they went under.

[Jay13]

I love true organic foods, and there is a definite advantage with respect to flavor and quality. The problem is, there is still no consistent standard for what is considered "organic" in the U.S.

Another issue: Without any pestacides pests are always a problem to varying degrees, and this can hurt the quality of the crops. (Are the poisons good, obviously not...)

Another issue is genetic engineering. This can actually be beneficial in some cases, such as corn that is naturally more resistant to pests...

I'm not saying anything bad about organics, but just know that the word organic doesn't automatically make something better (yet.) All that being said it is probably still better, as long as you deal with reputable vendors...

[fxdwhl]

Covered Bridge Produce? We were with them, too, until they went under.

Yup. What they had was good but we thought the selections were limited with so many herbs offered. We really didn't think we'd renew even before they went under. Towards the end though they're farmers choice was pretty nice.

Did you make it out to the farm when they opened it up for public picking? Oh man did we get our monies worth then. Some of the fields were a little overgrown but with some searching you could find good stuff. Probably took about 6 or 7 boxes home that day and could have taken more. The owner seemed like a nice guy, just had some shit luck and not the best business plan.

[S. cerevisiae]

One good reason people get E-coli, is that most organic fertilizers, are manure. Rain or irrigation, happens, and the crap on the ground, gets splashed up onto the veggies.

One gets E. coli poisoning from unwashed produce that ay have "contaminant" on it. The bacterium already lives in everyones gut, but getting it into ones bloodstream is the problem.

Anyone aguing that agribusiness is better (for anything other than gross production) is fooled.

This country will never again see organic family farms as the majority again. Most people, and the federal gov't. (largest buyewr of ag products in N. Am.) will never foot the bill for it.

[LoneBiker]

I just moved back to town from the country, since i was 18 I have put out a garden, strictly organic. Last years was 820SF. Organic tastes better, is better, and it awesome to get home from a ride and eat cherry tomatoes right off the vine. Last years crop went mainly to waste though, I severly underestimated the effect of the well rotted horse manure I tilled in during winter, and I got a super jungle out of control. Little childen could have gotten lost in there, 18 new tomato cages were crushed under the weight of the plants, laid bent and flat on the ground. MMMM, sugar baby watermelon right out of the yard...

[Ripp]

I'm not saying anything bad about organics, but just know that the word organic doesn't automatically make something better (yet.) All that being said it is probably still better, as long as you deal with reputable vendors...

Jay you brought up some good points. The standard needs work, or maybe enforcement of the existing standards! And as you mentioned any grower trying to be organic is probably producting a better product with less environmental impact than a traditional farmer.

Another thing to consider if environmental impact is your primary concern, is that the distance a product travels probaly has a greater impact on our planet than the farming practices used in its production. So buy local if possible. I've found buy talking to the vendors at the local farmers market that many of them grow near to organic standards even if they are not "certified", that coupled with the minimal amount of distance their produce has traveled makes their products the best choice in my mind!

[Ripp]

Oh, Cyclenaut I'm glad you dealt with the E. Coli issue. You were more diplomatic than I would have been and that served much better than what my response would have!

[dunvegan69]

There are my thoughts on organics (ignoring meat I know, maybe it will come up in the discussion, but its more complicated and much more cost prohibitive at this time. At least in my area.) what are yours?


My Uncle bought a 40 acre, organic blueberry farm 3 years ago in North central Florida. He is in his 70's, and he and his wife work this farm themselves, with the help of a few laborers. This was supposed to be his retirement from his cushy office job, now he, and my aunt are working sometimes 16 hours a day, doing backbreaking labor! Some retirement. Worst of all, they had a bad crop last year and lost big money. Imagine not only working hard for nothing, but having to work hard, and then pay
money out of your retirement to keep the farm going!
And because it is organic, all weeding must be done by hand, on 40 acres! And they have some nasty weeds in Florida that have roots that look like sweet potatoes, and all roots must be pulled, less they come back in a week.
Then there's these funky-ass stink bugs that spray you with some liquid that burns your eyes and nose. They live on the blueberrys, but you cant spray them!
Anyway, the organic blueberries are friggin' awesome
though!;)

[rockyrider]

Does anyone make organic donuts?

[1mystk]

Does anyone make organic donuts?

The local Naturopath store I think has organic donuts... why do you want me to send you some?:D

[scorcher]

Some really excellent points. Another thing to note (and maybe someone did already) is that organic does not mean pesticide free. There are "natural" pesticides that farmers may use and still have produce labeled organic. Many smaller farms these days will be very specific that they grow organic produce without any sort of pesticides.

Small is beautiful, so says E.F. Schumacher. CSAs and farmers' markets are the way to go. Pittsburgh folks should look into Mildreds' Daughters' Farm. If you live in the city, you may have a farm within walking distance of your house. The "smallness" of your food circle will have positive effects--see what James Kunstler has to say about it (http://jameshowardkunstler.typepad.com/cluster****_nation/2007/02/the_agenda_rest.html).

[IAmCosmo]

I try to do organic. Around here it's hard to find (but getting easier) and it's expensive. With having to feed two daughters as well as me and my girlfriend, sometimes I just can't afford to do it.

We are a vegan family, so that does lessen the load a little though.

[PutAwayWet]

I just got my year end statement for my CC that I buy all my groceries with. In 2006, I spent $4639.86 on groceries. That's just under $80/wk for two of us. We buy about 75% organic, and no meat. I like that I spend less money on better food than a lot of people I know. :)

[OTBSkinloss]

Why is organic assumed to be better?
My guess is drugs. Or fear. Or ignorance.

Pull my right leg, and it plays "Yankey Doodle"!
:rolleyes:

Edited to add:
AIDS is organic!

[Ripp]

Why is organic assumed to be better?
My guess is drugs. Or fear. Or ignorance.

Pull my right leg, and it plays "Yankey Doodle"!
:rolleyes:

Edited to add:
AIDS is organic!

Not I actually think you're open to this but oh well.....

Any food that has not had chemical fertilizers put on the soil it grows in or chemical pesticides sprayed on it have been proven to contain fewer chemicals than the produce grown with the assorted chemicals. Fewer chemicals=better.

Produce grown by organic farming have been shown to have a higher vitamin/mineral content than those grown by commercial methods. Higher vit/min content=better.

In some cases they just plain taste better. You get the idea.

You're a skeptic. Thats OK, doubters help keep industries on the level, make them provide proof of their claims, thats a good thing..... as long as the ones who requested the studies are actually open to the results. And who knows, maybe I've been duped........but I doubt it.

[OTBSkinloss]

Not I actually think you're open to this but oh well.....

Any food that has not had chemical fertilizers put on the soil it grows in or chemical pesticides sprayed on it have been proven to contain fewer chemicals than the produce grown with the assorted chemicals. Fewer chemicals=better.

Produce grown by organic farming have been shown to have a higher vitamin/mineral content than those grown by commercial methods. Higher vit/min content=better.

In some cases they just plain taste better. You get the idea.

You're a skeptic. Thats OK, doubters help keep industries on the level, make them provide proof of their claims, thats a good thing..... as long as the ones who requested the studies are actually open to the results. And who knows, maybe I've been duped........but I doubt it.

Scorce your claims, or go smoke a rope. Just because you type it, don't make it true. This has got to be the most common ploy from the left. Starting a sentence with "Scientists believe", or "Studies show", or "It's been proven" dont carry any water. It sure convinces dumb people. Just look at the global warming scare.

[poison idea]

i can't really afford to buy organic on a regular basis, but i grow it all summer and can/freeze what i can. also try to save seeds and use heirloom seeds whenever possible. i love my garden. it's incredibly satisfying to be able to make a meal for friends out of your garden -not buying anything you didn't help grow.
my dad grows a huge organic garden w all manner of delicious stuff in it. he does the organic pesticides/deterents as well.

no GMO's

[hairygrump]

My organic/gmo buying habits are pretty much coincidental to taste more than a political decision. I buy a exclusively organic tea and coffee because I like to buy fair trade for that stuff and the organic fair trade stuff I've come across just tastes a million times better, hands down.

Ditto for meat. Industrial pork tastes like cardboard after you've had meat from a pig that ate garbage in some guy's back yard for a couple years. It's too expensive for me to buy regularly, but when I've got the money... holy crap. What a difference. Ditto chicken. Double ditto lamb.

I'll usually go organic for stuff like tomatoes and spinach too, though I can't tell the difference with most other veggies.

If I can't taste the difference, though, I won't bother with it.

[Spatafore]

i can't really afford to buy organic on a regular basis, but i grow it all summer and can/freeze what i can. also try to save seeds and use heirloom seeds whenever possible. i love my garden. it's incredibly satisfying to be able to make a meal for friends out of your garden -not buying anything you didn't help grow.
my dad grows a huge organic garden w all manner of delicious stuff in it. he does the organic pesticides/deterents as well.

no GMO's

I agree with the satisifaction of having a garden 100%.

I enjoy growning tomatos, peppers, strawberries, and other easy to grow veggies/fruit. I don't fertilize them with anything though. I'll loosen up the ground with tools and perlite at first and then the plants get what they can find on their own. The remains of last year's crop gets tilled in and that's good enough with me. Since I never have any problems with what I reap, I don't change anything. I give them plenty of water and that's about it.

[OTBSkinloss]

Me too, PI. I'd love to be able to grow a huge garden. My parents do, so I rob theirs whenever possible. :D
Nothing like fresh veggies.

[fxdwhl]

I agree with the satisifaction of having a garden 100%.

I enjoy growning tomatos, peppers, strawberries, and other easy to grow veggies/fruit. I don't fertilize them with anything though. I'll loosen up the ground with tools and perlite at first and then the plants get what they can find on their own. The remains of last year's crop gets tilled in and that's good enough with me. Since I never have any problems with what I reap, I don't change anything. I give them plenty of water and that's about it.

I have a garden too. The wife and I tried veggies for a couple of years but the spot we have to work with doesn't get enough direct light. Herbs grow fine there so that's what we've done for the past 2 years. Basil, oregano, chives, parsley, sage, majorum, and others I can't remember right now. Different varieties each too. There's nothing better than fresh pesto made with fistfulls of basil and parsley!

We've got a compost bin and I'll mix that in during planting in the spring. You can really tell a difference in texture and color between plain soil and compost.

[scorcher]

I have a garden too. The wife and I tried veggies for a couple of years but the spot we have to work with doesn't get enough direct light. Herbs grow fine there so that's what we've done for the past 2 years. Basil, oregano, chives, parsley, sage, majorum, and others I can't remember right now. Different varieties each too. There's nothing better than fresh pesto made with fistfulls of basil and parsley!

We've got a compost bin and I'll mix that in during planting in the spring. You can really tell a difference in texture and color between plain soil and compost.

Are you a fan of greens like kale and chard? That stuff grows anywhere, and grows through the winter (there are green leaves pushing the snow in our backyard right now).

[fxdwhl]

Are you a fan of greens like kale and chard? That stuff grows anywhere, and grows through the winter (there are green leaves pushing the snow in our backyard right now).

We had chard 2 years ago and it did ok. We didn't plant enough for the 2 of us so it was picked pretty thin. Never planted kale but like it alot. Good greens are the hardest to buy so maybe we'll try growing them again.

[Ripp]

Scorce your claims, or go smoke a rope. Just because you type it, don't make it true. This has got to be the most common ploy from the left. Starting a sentence with "Scientists believe", or "Studies show", or "It's been proven" dont carry any water. It sure convinces dumb people. Just look at the global warming scare.

I mentioned in the original post that my source is my mother, certainly not worthy of being scientific, I admit. I'm not trying to sell you anything OTB, just stating what I believe to be (mostly anyway) based in fact.

I know she got it from reliable sources but I do not expect you to believe me!

I guess I'll go smoke me some rope! :D