The final reason never to buy anything online. Lesion Files a BBB complaint.

[American_Lesion]

......after a few beers......read on. The folks at the Better Business Bureau had to hear my drunken ramblings. My quest for a 952 derailleur ended thusly.


On 12 May, 2007, I utilized Google Checkout to purchase one RD-M952 Shimano XTR rear derailleur, which according to the website, was in stock. My Aspire Visa Card was billed accordingly ($140). This charge appeared on the statement, dated 14 May. On 18 May, I contacted Harbor County Bike and Hobby to find out where my merchandise was, and they assured me it was "being sent out that day." On 23 May, I contacted Harbor Country again, and they told me "the order had been cancelled." Also, they informed me that the owner had to authorize all refunds. I should be seeing a credit to my card in "two or three days." This was all because the merchandise was never in stock at all. If this was the case, why was my card billed in the first place? I find this exchange with Harbor Country to be unacceptable. I have contacted my credit card company, as I believe their business practices to be fraudulent.


(what a bunch of assholes at Harbor Country. I wound up pulling a Deore rear mech off another bike of nine to complete this project)

[S. cerevisiae]

That's why you use a credit card. You are protected. Never mind you've had a bad experience online. Should've supported the lbs.

There really isn't an LBS where he lives.

[rockyrider]

Sadly the lure of online sales gets a lot of shops into that market without the depth of knowledge, capital or background to pull it off well. They all figure they have the same access to QBP catalog stuff. Some companies have made a real hash of customer relations, but more often from cluelessness or incompetence rather than fraudulent business practices. I suspect many of these companies might be just as clueless with in store purchases.

I've actually had more screwed up special orders from various local shops than I have ever had with online shopping. It's not a huge number in either case.

As an example I ordered a 2007 Fox 36 TALAS from my local dealer last November, the distributor said sure no problem, be there in 2 days. The fork came in and lo and behold it was a 36 Float. The LBS calls the distributor, he's told "oh yeah of course, there's no 36 TALAS forks available for about 2 months." Why the distributor didn't tell the LBS that they wouldn't be able to fill the order for 60 days is unknown. Why they shipped the wrong fork instead of the one ordered is unknown.

This was after I tried ordering a TALAS 36 from a different local dealer and ended up with a Fox 32 TALAS instead just a month before, and they wouldn't take the fork back because it was a special order, so they discounted it to me and I sold it off for a profit.

So one project and two screwed up local orders, not because of fraud, just goofiness and sloppiness at a couple of different levels.

I don't know how many other people have noticed that a lot of service industries have really slid downhill face first in the past few years. It gets harder and harder to find people who give a crap in any industry, and it seems harder to find people that have experience and knowledge, or sometimes even understand what the heck you're talking about. The world is turning into that Far Side cartoon: "blah blah blah Ginger, Blah blah blah Ginger."

[Trailer Rails]

I handle all the ordering at the shop I manage and I can tell you first hand it is a PIA. I spend 80% of my work week reserching parts and trying to get all that parts together for project bikes. I use several excell spredsheets to help me track everything that is going on. On top of all the I have to manage the store and chase around lazy bike shop mechanics. I can understand how a lot of mistakes are made when ordering parts.

[American_Lesion]

Yes, I was lured by finding one of the few remaing "new old stock" M952s out there...yeah, right. Well, anyhow, the nice folks at Aspire Card are going to deal with it for me. I just feel like burning the chumps at Harbor Country for lying to me--or being inept--or whatever their excuse is. So I'm driving--from here on out--to Emig's in Meadville in the future to conduct my business. I made sure to purchase some stuff when I dropped off my ride yesterday (you just can't go dropping off your ride to get wrenched on without buying something, can you? It's just not fair to the LBS dudes!). But seriously, if it's available in Erie, Clarion, or Meadville...I'll buy it in this corner of Pennsylvania. The only reason I went online to get the durned thang was, well...allegedly they had it (and for less than a C-note and a half, delivered).

After this fiasco, I give up. A Deore rear mech will do just spiffy. Yes, there are some fine bike shops in the Northwest Pennsylvania area (Erie has a load of them). Sadly, there are none in Titusville, Tionesta, or Oil City--and with all the damn fine riding we have (and dedicated riders--you should have seen the cluster of roadies out and about today!), I'm wonderin' why that is.

So, yes, I'm familiar with the notion of supporting one's LBS. By all means, when you can, do so. I do it when I can...even though my choices aren't exactly local--certainly not local enough to build any sort of special customer/owner relationship. I really wish I had that option.

If my experience with Harbor Country can help anyone avoid headaches with this particular vendor, I guess than my nightmare will have served some purpose. These pukes are to be avoided at all costs.

(Edit)

Trailer, while I understand that mistakes may happen, a "faux pas" like this one is simply inexcusable in my book. These folks have had ample opportunity to rectify the situation, yet have done nothing. If this sort of activity is "within tolerance" at any shop, it's not one I'll be conducting business at any time soon (I recall a certain shop in Franklin, PA that lost a Hi/Lo adjustment screw on my Precision Billet derailleur--and I haven't been back since. Yeah, I can hold a lil' bit of a grudge).

Anyhow, here's a copy of the complaint to Google Checkout:
I'm not a merchant, but I'd like to report one that is conducting fraudulent business practices under Google's Checkout system. On May 12th, 2007, I purchased, and was subsequently billed for (on May 14th) an item that appeared to be "in stock" according to Harbor Country Bike & Hobby's Google Checkout Website. This purchase appears on my most recent statement from Aspire Visa for the amount of $140.47. I received an email confirmation for order number 1776 from the vendor. I subsequently emailed the vendor when I received no shipping confirmation when no shipping confirmation was received. My email was not returned. I called Harbor Country Bike and Hobby on the 18th of May, and they assured me that the item, a Shimano RD-M952 XTR rear derailleur, was shipping THAT DAY--six days after the purchase--four days after I was billed. I did not receive the item by the 23rd of May and called the vendor again. This time, the shipping department told me that the order had been cancelled and the representative on the phone was unable to give me anymore information at that time. I called back about an hour later, and another representative told me that they "thought they had the item in stock," but they were out, couldn't get anymore, and would have to refund my funds to my Visa Card, but only the company owner was capable of doing this, and this would happen in two to three days. The way this transaction went down has been entirely unsatisfactory. The fact that I was billed and no item was sent, their horrendous lack of inventory control, and unprofessional conduct (not returning emails) does not make it appear as if Google screens their Google Checkout partners carefully. To this date, I have not received a refund; I am pursuing the course of action one would take for fraudulent charges with my credit card company (they are sending me an affidavit to fill out so that I may recoup the funds). I have also filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau.

The following is a copy of the order confirmation I received after placing my order (my credit card number, phone number, name, & address have been entirely concealed) :

CustomerID# 868




Thank you for your order. Your order number is 1776, placed
5/12/2007 at 11:52AM.


Bill To:

XXXXX XXXXXXX

XXX XXXXXXXX XX

Titusville, PA 16354

United States

814-XXX-XXXX

amcgraw@pitt.edu

Ship To:

XXXXX XXXXXXX

XXX XXXXXXXX XX

Titusville, PA 16354

United States

814-XXX-XXXX


Payment Info:

Credit Card: Visa
XXXXX XXXXXXX
************XXXX
Exp: 03/2009

Shipping Method:

USPS Priority


Order Details:



Code
Item
Qty
Price
Total


122994
Shimano® RD-M952 XTR Rear Derailleur

1
$134.99
$134.99






Sub Total:
$134.99



Tax:
$0.00



Shipping:
$5.48



Grand Total:
$140.47





Thank you for shopping at www.harborcountrybike.com!

Visit us again at http://www.harborcountrybike.com/














Do you have a question
or issue with this order? (1776)

Please use the form below to send it to us.


If you are
having any trouble typing your question or issue, please try
opening this email in it's own window.





*A copy of this question or issue will be sent back to your
E-mail Address.



(Feel the Wrath of The Lesion!)

[nogearshere]

crappy experience, but one (or more for that matter) bad experience(s) at my LBS wouldn't stop me from buying at ALL shops...just from the offending party.

similar to what you would with your local shop, you should get to know ANYONE you are conducting business with, online or otherwise.

and finally, these bargain houses are a royal crap shoot...anonymous orders placed with third party 'low-bidders' - n'uh'un, no sir, not my money...

[hophead]

Yes, there are some fine bike shops in the Northwest Pennsylvania area (Erie has a load of them). Sadly, there are none in Titusville, Tionesta, or Oil City--and with all the damn fine riding we have (and dedicated riders--you should have seen the cluster of roadies out and about today!), I'm wonderin' why that is.

Sounds like a opportunity AL.

[Scott G.]

That's why you use a credit card. You are protected. Never mind you've had a bad experience online. Should've supported the lbs.

Moreover, the only safe and satisfying thing to buy online is PORN :o

[American_Lesion]

Please note, that although this ass says he refunded my money (and note, his story changes) I have not been credited anything on my card. Get this:

We apologize for the inconvenience we had caused you. Unfortunately like
most online companies, parts are displayed as a "virtual inventory", which
means it may not be here but can be ordered from the manufacturer and
received to us within (1) business day. What also is unfortunate but a
reality is that there is an availability report for most of our parts. So we
rely on the manufacturer to have that part available for order. In this
instance the part was unavailable, both in our inventory, or the
manufacturers. Unavailability could have happened up to the second you had
placed this order, meaning someone may have gotten the last one right before
you.

To explain the transaction history regarding your refund, it takes 24-48
hours processing for the order once placed, then inventory is checked, and
orders are placed if needed. With this particular order, the manufacturer
listed this item in stock and it was ordered, only later to find out it was
not and the manufacturer had mis-listed the inventory. This had taken an
extra day or so. Then this order was sent to accounting for a refund and
cancellation, upon which an email is sent to notify the customer of the
products availability issue, and that a refund would be taking place. Our
store is also in the process of moving to a larger location, changing some
software, and automating a lot of shipping software. We also have changed
our merchant services. We had decided to do most our transitions before the
Memorial Day rush, and as seamless as possible. Your transaction was delayed
because of some trouble with our merchant services terminal. You have been
refunded in full as of today, May 28, 2007. We know that this issue has been
a long dispute, but we work to solve our issues during the business week, in
as realistic of a time as possible for us. I assure you this transaction was
not in any way fraudulent, just unfortunate as to the availability of the
product. We apologize for what has happened, and realize that you are
frustrated, but we just wanted to tell you the details of what has happened
because our reputation is important to us.

Sincerely,
Nathan Lunsford-Sales Manager/VP of Sales
Harbor Country Bike & Hobby



(Oh, Cry me a river!!!!)



Lesion Returns fire:

Now that seems like a string of really thin excuses at best. I believe we
both know that the manufacturer hasn't had a RDM-952 Rear Derailleur in
stock for years. The RDM 960 and RDM 970 series superceded it. That's why
I chose to do business with your company. It wasn't your glitzy website or
your reputation. You (allegedly) had what I wanted. It's called having NEW
OLD STOCK on hand. Don't try and sell me a load of B.S.; I know what
Shimano currently manufactures. If you own a bike shop, so do you.

So I am not believing that excuse.

As for my refund? Well, I just called Aspire Card. No credit has been made
to my Visa. I can't say that I'm not surprised. This business started long
before Memorial Day (on the 12th), so as for it "getting caught up in the
Memorial Day rush," well, that's on you folks.

(Jeez, now I've upset him...call a guy on his fib, and he gets really upset!)

Wow, you sure have a lot of time on your hands to go through all this, but I
unfortunately don't. I personally issued your refund this weekend. As for
why it wasn't done sooner, I don't have an answer for that. In any case,
maybe you should open a bike shop since you know so well how to operate one.


We all have our bad days and make mistakes, stuff happens. I think you may
be taking things a little too seriously. This was a $140 transaction which I
am sure you will agree has taken up too much time on both our ends. Do us
both a favor and shop at Performance, Nashbar, or wherever else next time.

Jerry Poncin
Owner



(Jerry, I just want my money back. Honest merchants give refunds when they don't have stuff in stock. Actually, they don't charge for it in the first place and make up all manner of silly fibs to cover their slipshod business practices when they realize that they didn't have the freaking thing in stock in the first place. Refund my money and you'll never have to deal with me again. I promise!)

[nogearshere]

at this point your one and only call is to visa. file a claim, simple. no more emails. no more calls. let the 18% charging mf's do their job.

oh and...virtual inventory sucks so much arse...virtually the stupidest way to run a virtual business...online inventory is online inventory, store inventory is store inventory...inventory only what you have and you never oversell...oh no, that'll never work...how do we bait and switch then?

[Ripp]

I'm forced to make a call of "overreaction" here. Lesion, it sucks that your order got screwed up, and the shop definately could have handled it a little better but take a chill pill or something dude! Your bile only hurts yourself.
In todays fast paced world expecting all transactions in your life (ESPECIALLY ONLINE!) to go on without a hitch is unrealistic. The shop will credit your card, even if it isn't as soon as you'd like, you will get your $ back. They screwed up, tried to apoligize and explain, (somewhat flimsily I admit) and will give back your money. Relax, you'll live happier.

[rockyrider]

oh and...virtual inventory sucks so much arse...virtually the stupidest way to run a virtual business...online inventory is online inventory, store inventory is store inventory...inventory only what you have and you never oversell...oh no, that'll never work...how do we bait and switch then?Virtual inventory works so well for the airlines. They have a fixed inventory of seats and a virtual inventory of passengers, and they never have a problem selling an extra 10% of seats. :rolleyes:

[nogearshere]

Virtual inventory works so well for the airlines. They have a fixed inventory of seats and a virtual inventory of passengers, and they never have a problem selling an extra 10% of seats. :rolleyes:

oh ya, you wait here, next flight is at 1900hrs...here is a coupon...shite happens.

[rockyrider]

Air Canada's customer service makes the worst criminally inclined online bike shop look like a Cartier Diamonds or Rolls Royce dealer.

[American_Lesion]

Ripp, the guy has said to me he's refunded my money already. So where is it? It's now Wednesday, and I still haven't been credited anything to my account. I've proccessed credit cards before, and I know that refunding credit to somebody's account doesn't take that long. That's what has me jacked up. You aren't reading the whole thing here. First he says "I did it Monday." then, "I did it this weekend." I'm getting the same run around I did when they--allegedly--were sending out my merchandise. This outfit is running a shellgame. I'm honestly surprised I haven't had several inexplicable charges show up on my Visa Card. It doesn't take 18 days to sift out that merchandise isn't in stock and process a credit card refund. I seriously wonder if there is even a brick and mortar Harbor Country Bike Shop at all.

I mean 18 DAYS....that has to be some sort of record (if indeed, they are a legitimate outfit). That's certainly nothing to be proud of. The fact that I was told conflicting information on the phone by employees? I just want my cash back and to be able to wash my hands of these a$$holes forever.

It does seem pretty obvious by this point that they are either dragging their feet with the refund or they have no intention of following through. I guess the folks at Aspire Visa will have to deal with them. I just HATE being ripped off. I don't give a shit if it was for a derailleur or for a vibrating studded c@ckring. Companies that are disreputable need to be singled out and summarily peppered with iguana dung (and it'll be that way when I rule the world).

[rockyrider]

I did have a situation where Visa was involved with a refund of a double charge on a sale and it took almost 10 days to see the credit appear because of some issue where it had to be processed by the merchant's bank and then by Visa and there was some holding period of 3 or 4 days to make sure that the merchant wasn't being scammed by me... the reasons that Visa had for being slow were never ending.

VISA originally told me it could take a month, and I pointed out that I better not be paying interest on that amount as it would run over a statement end period, and they told me that if it did take that long the interest would be reversed as well.

[American_Lesion]

I haven't even received the affidavit to fill out on these guys yet, so the folks at Aspire haven't really been called out yet (I'm expecting it tomorrow of Friday).

I wouldn't be so bent out of shape if I didn't know exactly how this is supposed to go down. I bought something from online earlier in the month--got to researching it after I made my order--realized it wasn't what I needed & cancelled my order later that day. My card had been billed, but the item hadn't yet been shipped. Within a matter of hours, the credit appeared back on my Visa card. That's the way merchants are supposed to opperate.

So yeah, I'm going to let the folks at Aspire Card deal with these lying pukes. What is sad is that they're doing business under the Google banner and the Amazon banner...ripping God knows how many folks off--or at least giving them the run around.

[S. cerevisiae]

Dude-

So how is your health lately? No more visits from Mr. Sinjin Kidneystone-Smith I hope.

Still filling your addiction on the roadways of Crawford, Erie, Venango, and Clarion counties?

Go get some dirt under you for a while. It'll bring perspective...

[American_Lesion]

I actually had to undergo some nastiness with the left kidney at the end of April. I'd never piddled so much blood in my life! It was sort of a double-wammy coupled with my vasectomy...which wound up with a nasty infection (I have no idea how that happened....believe me, I wash that region very frequently, thoroughly, & vigorously....what can I say...it kinda feels nice). Maybe it was a mistake going ahead with the vasectomy so soon after another bout of the kidney nonsense. Anyhow, I'm still sore enough that I'm not riding.

[Ripp]

Lesion, I admit I had not caught that the timeline of this deal had extended to 18 days! They are probably either trying to scam you out of your money or are just run by an inept businessman, there are lots of those out there.
Luckily almost all credit card companies offer protection from this sort of thing and you'll get your money back.

Your tirade is more justified than I originally thought but it still only hurts you. The situation can be handled as stressfully or as calmly as YOU chose, that was my main point. The end result will be the same, eventually.

[myron]

You just really have no choice... The Attorney General is who you file with. The BBB is a joke and carries no weight with anyone, more like an offical sounding place for people to bitch to and wear themselves out while still feeling justified.

If I recieved a letter from the BBB, I would throw it in the trash and go on about my bizzzzzz, if the AG sent me a letter it would REQUIRE a written response within ten days.

[AM Radio]

Do you know what the "BBB," is? It's something you join, not a governing body of cash transactions. It's an advertising tool.
Hell, I should start my own Org. that gets me discounts on bagels and lox.
I bet your BBB call goes as well as other's calls to INS:D

[eugarpst]

it seems like one of the advantages of ordering from the LBS is that you (usually) don't have to pay for most cheaper parts before they order them for you. So then you don't have to go through the hassles of getting your $ back if the order is screwed up.

Not that the LBS ordering system is always perfect, but a good shop won't screw up very often.

I should add that wholesalers like QBP are good for everyday easy-to-find parts, but not necessarily for harder-to-find obscure or discontinued parts. That's where the interwebs come in handy.

[gti2k2000]

OK. everyone is going to claim life would be great if you bought from your LBS in the first place. For a lot of people that is not an option. There is no bike shop within 30 miles of me. I have had some bad experiences with online purchases. One place charged my account and would not answer e-mails for weeks after an order. It turned out they were waiting for a backorder to be filled. I thought it was pretty dishonest to take my money for an item they didn't have. This kind of thing happens a lot. If you have a bunch of shops in your area, great, you can go elsewhere. The rest of us have to deal with online shops in the hope that they are not crooks. If they would just be honest about what's in stock, when it's shipped , etc. there would be no problems. Stringing people along in the hope that they won't get really pissed is no way to do business.

[American_Lesion]

Money finally refunded at (get this) timestamp on the transaction? 7:17 PM (just) this past Thursday, so all those "Oh, I refunded your money on Monday....over the weekend..." Lies. Oh, and notification of my refund from Harbor Country was accompanied shortly thereafter by an email not from Harbor Country, but from Jerry himself ("owner and V.P."...oh brother...) that made liberal use of the f-word and told me that the reason I had the particular credit card I did (with the generally crummy rate I happen to have) is because I don't pay my bills. What-what? I'm not the one being scrutinized here for my lack of integrity (I checked this guy's Amazon.com feedback rating, and 11 percent of his customers said that they had problems with him...like refund issues, never receiving merchandise, wrong crap coming way late...the usual shady stuff). Anyhow, put a divorce and some student loans beneath you and see what your credit looks like, bub!

Lesion pays his bills, durnit. He even gives to charity (none based in the Middle East, though...the whole box of chocolates thing applies there).

Anyhow, the folks at Google Checkout have taken an interest in what's going on at Harbor Country Bike and Hobby (the squeaky wheel gets the grease), and though I was about to let it all drop, the vulgarity strewn email just bought this cretin some more issues. I'm going to forward it. Maybe I'll let the folks at the BBB see it. I'm not sure yet.

Oh, and the BBB is a body for dispute settlement between customers and businesses. I've been on the losing side of that one when I was at King Cab in Fairbanks, Alaska. One of our fool drivers snagged some groceries that were left in his cab and the passeneger called the next day wondering where they were...well, the driver had gone on a four-day drunk and the groceries had gone into his tummy...and the passenger filed a complaint to the BBB (which King Cab was not, nor had ever been a member of), well, to make a long story short, we had a judgment against us, so whenever somebody plugs "King, Alaska, Golden Nugget Cab, Inc." into the BBB database, they'll see that there have been past issues with the company, and they may think twice before doing business with the company (oh, those lucrative Airport Luggae Contracts...down the toilet!).

We had a real dork for a manager back then....I think his name was....Lesion.

Oh, and in no way are the BBB's judgement's binding. They're like your permanent record in junior high....they really don't mean a whole lot. And yes, you can join the BBB....just like the Chamber of Commerce, it's a big waste of funds that you'd probably be better off socking into...oh...I dunno...warm socks. Probably only a bigger waste.

How's that for hypocritical?

And when I think "AG," I think Gonzo or That Freak from Missouri singing "Let the Eagle Soar."

Can't we leave people like that out of it? They give me the willies.


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