Bent rims

[Mauriceman]

Arrrrgh! Turned the steering wheel on my K Monkey a bit too far to the right and ruined a Salsa DelgadoX rim. Any recomendations for a new rim? I think I'm going 36 hole this time, with some White disc hubs.

[jvossman]

Hi Maurice-

I weigh 210 and have good experiences with the delgado/xtr setup. My second 29er wheel set is some Mavic 520 Black, Ceramic wheels to Chris King Hubs..

36 hole setup in both cases. Other popular setups include Velocity Dyads and Bontrager Lights, but the salsa delgado seems to be the winning combination of strong, relatively light and cheap.

Interesting the way you bent your wheel. I assume you are running the 22" frame monkey?

[Mauriceman]

I've got some 36 hole White Industries hub i'm going to build up, maybe with a WTB rim.

My Monkey's a 20". I'm 6'4", but I like the top tube on the 20" just fine, and there's plenty of seat tube as well. My only sizing complaint is that the haed tube is too short, so I've got a bunch of spacers on to get my handlebars up to the level I like, level w/the seat, or just a tad lower.

[Cloxxki]

In return for the short headtube, you got :
- a 31.5mm higher placed front axle
- a 38mm longer fork (over 430mm as 80mm corrected rigid standard)

The headtube on my 22" KM is only 105mm, but I still would like my bars a bit lower, while my stem is already at -5º right now. I'm 6'4" as well, with huge limbs and tiny torso. The 20" would have been okay, the 22" just offers me some extra stability and room, plus I like my 29"stems short.

[Mauriceman]

Yea, I guess most people like the shorter head tube. Me, I'm always shopping for stems with more rise and/or bikes with bigger head tubes.

[Cloxxki]

I guess you're not the riser bar kind of man? Or were you already using one? That IMO looks better than a sack of spacers...

[jvossman]

salsa moto ace 40 degree rise 110mm from my old marin mount vision pro before I went 29er. Let me know if you need it maurice...


-john voss
miami fl

[Mauriceman]

Thanks for the offer, John. I've got riser bars AND spacers and I'm pretty comfy. I'm just saying, when I design my own custom bike, it's going to have a bigger head tube. I'll give up a little standover.

[jagur]

i say go with some fat Rhyno lite rims.

[unclefuzzy]

so what rim did you go with Maurice? I would have steered you away from the WTB's. I didn't have any luck with mine. I went out to NoDak and MaahDaahHey trail last weekend and tacoed my front wheel in the derby instigated by Simon(I know all the Mpls C-r-C guys very well). I also was running the Salsa DelgadoX rim. Now I'm not too sure what I'm gonna replace it with.

[thanita]

Maurice here, not T
Just built up a set of White Industrys 36 hole disk hubs with Delgados again, hoping the extra spokes will help. I'll bet those Rhynos are strong, but I'm not ready to go that heavy right now. My mindset is moving toward lighter stuff since I've been doing some long races.

[DancingBear]

Here's a nifty fact for you Clydes with leanings towards weight weenieism. 36 DT competition spokes weigh a little more than 48 DT revolution spokes and a 48 hole wheel with revolution spokes is considerably stronger & stiffer than a 36hole/competition setup. So if you need strong, but wanna keep the weight down, try 48 hole Velocity Dyads laced to your 48 hole hub of choice with some DT revolutions. Tie & Solder 'em if you wanna be as cool as Chippo (or me! :D). The T&S treatment adds a lot of strength & stiffness as well, at a minimal weight penalty!

I'm 300lbs & I typically would steer well clear of a kinda-light rim like the Dyad, but with 48 spokes I have full faith in my weight weenieish setup.

[jagur]

Originally posted by DancingBear
The T&S treatment adds a lot of strength & stiffness as well, at a minimal weight penalty! thats a load,the only reason to T&S your spokes is on a track bike to keep'em from flying around if one breaks during a high powered sprint. Even then 99% of track racers dont do it anyway,since it sturs up more air resistance.

[DancingBear]

I felt the same way until I road a set of wheels before & after. It made a believer out of me.

Have you ever ridden a set of tied & soldered wheels, or the same set of wheels before & after? Could you share your impressions, something a little more thought out than "that's a load?" I'd like to know if you couldn't feel any difference, or if you had a set of T&S wheels that didn't prove to be any more durable than normal wheels. Could you point me towards an article that demonstrates how tieing & soldering the spokes provides no real benefit? I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm just looking for information, impressions, or an opinion with a little justification attached. Maybe it doesn't make much of a difference for lighter folks, but I could definitely feel the difference.

[Subscription Guy]

I've got a copy of Jobst Brandt's "The Bicycle Wheel" seventh printing, 1990. In it, he conducts a test of the lateral and torsional elasticity of a couple rear wheels, before and after tying/soldering.

Basically, he applied a known load to the wheels, and carefully measured the deflection. (What he calls elasticity, is what this thread calls stiffness.) From the elasticity measurements (see the book for more details) he concludes: "It is apparent from these results that tying and soldering of spokes has so little effect, if any, that it is difficult to detect even by precise measurement."

Just tossing out some science. There may be other explanations why somebody "feels" that tying/soldering increases stiffness.

[DancingBear]

Interesting, thanks for the info Sub-Guy.

[jagur]

i have the same book that Subscription guy is talking about (second edition 1983 ;) )

its the 48 spokes that are making it feel stiffer not the T&S

[DancingBear]

Here's some more info on the issue of tied & soldered spokes:

Response from DT Swiss:

The performance advantage of tied and soldered wheels is difficult to
quantify, but some riders claim to notice an improvement in wheel
stiffness, ride quality, and wheel life. The effect of tying and
soldering would be minor, however, compared to the differences between
various rims and spokes that you could choose. In the past, tying and
soldering was very popular for track racing, where strong side loads
can
be exerted on the wheels. It also helped to make up for inferior spoke
quality. Now that rims and spokes are significantly improved, the
benefits of tying and soldering are less tangible. You could certainly
try it on your current wheelset and see if it makes a difference, but
most likely you will have the best riding experience using heavier rims
and spokes.


Paul Aieta
General Manager
DT Swiss, Inc.

And from a guy that knows enough about the art of mountainbike maintenance to write a few books:

Q: I'm a big guy, 6'6" and pushing 300 pounds, and all but the heaviest and most overbuilt wheels feel flexy under my weight, especially in the turns. Can tied & soldered spokes offer me any performance advantage on road or off?


A: Yes, I think so. I have tied and soldered my own mountain bike wheels for years now, and I notice a difference not only in lateral stiffness but especially in application of the disc brake. I am your height and 170 pounds, though.


Also, the owner of my LBS is a fan of T&S spokes for big guys. In his experience the wheels simply last longer. I still think that they make a big difference. I rode the exact same wheel before and after I tied & soldered the spokes and the difference in stiffness is obvious. I'm a big fan of logical empiricism, so for now I've gotta say that tied and soldered spokes are better, at least for hairless gorillas like me.

[Subscription Guy]

If it feels good, do it.
(Dang, I wish I knew who first uttered those words).
:D :D :D

The lab tests may not show increased stifness, but if it feels good and it ain't hurtin nuthin......

[jagur]

sweet a responce from DT,thats worth tying them up right there!

[grislybikegeek]

Jagur, I built a set of rynolites for my tandom. There rubish! They can't handle any spoke tension. Before I even put a wheel on the stand after building it I bring all the spokes up to the same tesion, about 225lbs. drive side 175lbs. (yea that's tight, but it's well within the limits of a good rim). Normally, a mavic or a campy hardly take any truing, it's just a matter a stressing them and touching up 'till they "stand". The ryno was all over the place. I fought that bastard for an hour. Now it's true, but the spokes are far from equal tension.
Do they even make a 700mm ryno?
I'm a huge fan of T&S. If it didn't help, then high flange hubs never would have existed. I think it's the same principal, shorten the effective length of the spokes and spread the load.
Gerd Schraner says some pretty intresting stuff on the subject in "The Art Of Wheelbuilding". T&S the back wheel of your singlespeed, you'll be a believer. I also like Bear's idea about using 48 rev. Spreading the load is key.

[JerseyDevil]

Tying and soldering spokes definately works. I did tests to research it myself.

What Jobst Brandt tested as far as T&S can basically be thrown out the window. Why? He tested the wheels in a static environment, which was laying them on a table and pressing down on them. That's sophmoric.

Spinning wheels are a whole different game. His tests were done based on a single lateral (sideways) load or a single radial (verticle) load. When a wheel is spinning, it is subject to both types of loads at the same time, as well as take-up by spokes as they shift from one position to another, braking, accelerating, rider weight, shifting weight, bump forces, spoke gauge and lacing pattern.

I've built singlespeed MTB wheels, fixed track wheels, and road wheels to test with. First I built them without T&S and rode them, making notes and making sure the bike was set up similarly each time. Then I T&Sed them, and did the same rides, on the same bikes, on the same road or trail, and the same tire pressure. In all cases but 1, T&S made a NOTICABLE difference. The only situation it didn't was on a 36 spoke fixed front and rear wheel, built with straight 15 gauge spokes laced 4-cross and a large-flanged hub. With the thin spokes, they still flexed too much even with the help of tying them.

Other set-ups I tried with this test (front and rear). All were built with relatively high tension:

Road wheels-Velocity rims and Campy Chorus hubs, 32 Wheelsmith 14/15 spokes, front 1 cross, rear 3 cross, brass nipples

MTB SS- Pauls hubs, Bonti Mustang rims, 32 Sapim Race 14/15 spokes laced 1 cross front, 3 cross rear, aluminum nips (This test I only T&Sed the rear wheel)

Road fixed-Mavic Open Pro hard-anodized rims, Miche large flange hubs, 36 DT 14 gauge spokes laced 4 cross, brass nips(only rear wheel T&Sed) This rear wheel was also broken down and the same test was done with the same hub and spokes, but with a Mavic CXP33 rim. The Open Pro was too weak and started cracking at the eyelets.

Road fixed-FIR tubular rims, Miche small flange hubs, front wheel Sapim 14/15 spokes laced 3 cross, rear wheel laced 3 cross with Sapim 14 gauge on the drive side and 14/15 NDS, aluminum nips

In some cases, the wheels actually became too stiff after the T&S. This is bad because the spokes can't do their job of absobing shock and can lead to cracked rims or hub flanges, as well as giving a crappy ride.

It is really a judgement call on whether to T&S a wheel or not. The rider's weight, riding style, rim and hub choice, lacing pattern, and spoke gauge all play a part in correctly building a wheel. Nothing beats experience when it comes to this. A good builder can put a wheel together so all of the components will work as a SYSTEM.

Also, hub flange plays a large part in what lacing will work. If you take a small-flange hub and lace it 4 cross with 36 holes, you'll be working backwards and creating a weaker wheel than a 32 hole. With 36 holes, the spokes will be achored in the flange past the tangentinal point, which will anchor it past the axle and at a weaker position. In addition, it will cross the other spokes at their heads, causing a bulge in each spoke. If you are lacing 36 hole or more, large flange hubs are needed to take advantage of the increased spoke count.

Gerd Schraner is also a respected wheelbuilder, and in his book "The Art of Wheelbuilding", he says T&Sing wheels increases their life, adds overall stability to the wheelbuild, and decreases stress on the spokes. If anyone wants a quote from the book, let me know.

Of course, if you T&S a wheel, you have to use appropriate components. Using straight 14 gauge spokes tied and soldered to a 400 gram rim is going to cause problems. The spokes will be very stiff, causing the rim to flex when a force is applied to it, resulting in bad wheel behavior and eventually rim failure. A strong, stiff spoke lacing must use a strong, stiff rim too.

I think Jobst Brandt's knowledge is outdated and comes from a stubborn man. He also nay-says radial-laced wheels. In the past few years Mavic, Bontrager, Campy, Zipp, and other high-end wheel companies have been offering radial-laced wheels with great success, on road AND mountainbike wheels. I don't see any of them breaking the way Brandt claims they would.

I've done the building and testing in a real-world environment. Who else has? You armchair idiots who read an outdated book and think you know everything make me sick.

Tying and soldering works.

[grislybikegeek]

wow jerseydevil. i agree with you 100% on your tech. talk, but don't you think your being a little harsh on the guys who don't agree. we're all here for the same thing, to talk bikes, toss around ideas and opinions. fact is we all love bikes. i'm gonna go out to the garage and fill a pint, stare at my bikes and take a big fat drink to all of you.

[JerseyDevil]

Originally posted by grislybikegeek
wow jerseydevil. i agree with you 100% on your tech. talk, but don't you think your being a little harsh on the guys who don't agree. we're all here for the same thing, to talk bikes, toss around ideas and opinions. fact is we all love bikes. i'm gonna go out to the garage and fill a pint, stare at my bikes and take a big fat drink to all of you.

Well, yeah, I do think I was harsh. Maybe I did act in a severe manner, but I'm calling someone on their BS. Jagur is all against T&S and he doesn't even know why. Is it because something he read? Did he hear it from someone else? The world is full of too much talk and no do. I did my own homework, and continue to do so.

For someone to criticize something like Jagur did, I'd hope there's a lot of experience behind his reasoning. It doesn't sound to me like he's got much experience with this stuff. He wrote that T&Sing is worthless, but gave no reason why. Don't go around stating things like they're law if you don't know what you're talking about.

When someone on the forum asks for help with something, it's because they don't know what to do or get. If someone else gives them an answer based upon "what he thinks", I think that does more damage than my "harsh" words could. Someone's armchair quarterbacking could give a person false info that could lead to bad decisions. You have an opinion? Fine, but be ready to support it.

It's obvious that I love bikes. Crap, I spent hundreds of dollars and tons of hours building wheels and doing those tests, along with lots of other tests. I work with different people and build them wheels that work for them so they're happy. I don't do it for the money. It sure doesn't make me rich. I do it for the passion. I'm not here to piss people off or cause problems. I'm letting everyone in on my EXPERIENCES, not my opinion that holds no ground.

My apologies to anyone who didn't like the tone of my writing, but I don't take too well to people who try to tell others what's good and what's bad when their knowledge is minimal or nill.

[jagur]

oh gee,im so sorry for having an opinion on a forum of all places.god what an idiot i am...please forgive me...oh jersey devil.....PLEASE SAVE ME MY OWN STUPIDITY.......arg!!!! how can i live with my self?

oh the tool i am...

[JerseyDevil]

Originally posted by jagur
oh gee,im so sorry for having an opinion on a forum of all places.god what an idiot i am...please forgive me...oh jersey devil.....PLEASE SAVE ME MY OWN STUPIDITY.......arg!!!! how can i live with my self?

oh the tool i am...

A typical response from someone with nothing to say in defense. I rest my case.

Anyway jagur, having an opinion is a good thing. It stirs people's thoughts, brings new ideas to the table, and is good mental excercise.

But you wrote this...


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DancingBear
The T&S treatment adds a lot of strength & stiffness as well, at a minimal weight penalty!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

thats a load,the only reason to T&S your spokes is on a track bike to keep'em from flying around if one breaks during a high powered sprint. Even then 99% of track racers dont do it anyway,since it sturs up more air resistance.

That doesn't sound like an opinion to me. That sounds like a person who thinks they know the final word of authority. You didn't say "I think that tying and soldering wouldn't benefit because...", you called it a "load". Well, what's your reason? Where'd your knowledge and info come from? Oh, I know... you read that 22 year-old book by someone who has all but disappeared.

First of all, I've read lots of DB's posts on this and other boards. The man knows his shizznit. He doesn't babble to hear himself talk or inflate his ego.

Secondly, have you ever even built a wheel? Do you have any idea of the science behind a wheel? (There's a lot!)

Unless you've ridden a few wheels before and after tying and soldering, how can you have a strong enough opinion to make a definate recommendation and call it a load?

If you lived near me, I'd invite you over to test ride some wheels. I could show you the benefits and possible bad points of T&S.

The only reason most track riders don't have their wheels tied and soldered is because of the wheelbuilders themselves. There is good money in wheelbuilding. The labor is easy once you're skilled, and there's decent markup in parts.
There is no markup in tie wire and solder, and the labor is intensive. Not many riders want to pay 2 or 3 hours of extra labor for someone to wrap their spokes up. And as you pointed out (Hey, look at that! You actually DID get something right!), it tampers with aerodynamics, especially with low spoke count wheels or those built with aero spokes. But that's track. I don't think this 29er is headed for a velodrome.

For big guys who fold big wheels, tying and soldering is a great addition to a wheel.

[jagur]

Originally posted by JerseyDevil
A typical response from someone with nothing to say in defense. I rest my case. im sure that any responce from somone who disgrees with you would be "typical"

yes i have built my own wheels.

sorry if i came off as a dick......or was that sarcastic too?

anyway i've learned alot about T&S in this thread,thanx everybody.

<pressing e-ject button now>