Crank it UP or Kick it OUT?

[thanita]

Okay, women and the like-minded:

I've asked this before and I'll ask again - do we want a women's forum? Last time consensus was "keep it," although not much activity as of late. Whether we like it or not, women are not the primary target group of lots of things bike, so having our own blab space seemed a good idea. But is it? Kindof lame if it's lame, ifyaknowwhatImean. I'm guity as anyone, too.

So - question 1 - Crank it up or kick it out?
Depending on responses to this, I think starting some new threads on specifics of biking (commuting, ss, downhill) from our perspective may be a good thing. Although these things aren't "women-specific" (ugh, that phrase is starting to get on my nerves," we may have a different take and different approaches. Or not. Let us know!

Thanita:rolleyes:

[thanita]

C'mon now, I see people are looking and like some body parts I could mention, everyone's got an opinion. Your forum, speak up!
T

[wooglin]

Well, I think its a thing to have. But then I'm not a female. :)

[jhl99]

I'm also male.

The womens forum doesn't use much computer disk space. Might as well let it ride.

Maybe mountain biking is gender neutral!

[thanita]

But don't think it is . . . well, thanks for the replies, we'll let it run a bit for now.
T

[zzyxzz]

Keep the forum. Hopefully it will entice some new members to join the conversation, or start one themselves.

My (male) 2 cents. ;)

[slugbath]

Hi Thanita and Co.,

I'm a commuter/mountain cyclist of one or two wheels that has never posted here before. I like it...there's, uh, lots of space...;)

The lack of women in cycling forums is an interesting phenomenon. I frequent a general unicycling forum that, despite the fact that lots of women unicycle and the online atmosphere is polite and non-intimidating, the very active board has maybe - MAYBE - six active female posters. I've chatted about this interestingly skewed sex ratio with friends. Perhaps women can be just as enthusiastic about a sport as the guys, but a smaller proportion of them are interested in engaging in a detailed online forum analysis of their activity, though they may be interested in chatting about it in person. Alternatively, women may be interested in talking about different aspects of the sport than some guys: as you say, "we may have a different take or different approaches" to universal topics.

So hey, I think it is really cool that DirtRag has a Women's Forum, but it IS sad that it is so quiet. I see what you mean that it kind of looks bad to devote space to women's topics, but the women do not come. Maybe women don't want to post in it because a) there are few posters here (the egg-chicken dilemna), or b) they think that the concept of a women's forum is sexist, or c) there are few women active in any DR forums (??). Personally, I think that a women's forum is good to have to discuss women's issues as they surface, even if it is slow.

(BTW, I am not surprised that DirtRag has a women's forum: when I was first getting into mountain riding, I found that DirtRag was the only mag to consistently feature female features, in however short supply. A bunch of the other mags would have an creepy ad of a bikini-clad woman gnawing on a frame in the back, and that was IT. Hence, DirtRag purchased from the local shop often adorns my table...)

[thanita]

Now, that's a well-thought out reply. Cool.
T

[Mauriceman]

it's nice that the guys like the women's forum, but it looks like the ladies have left the building.

[free spirit]

Keep it. I like it, you just have to tell my boss not to work me so hard so I can spend more time on the net. ;)

Even though I tend to hangout with the guys, ride with the guys, and drink with the guys, I like the women here. I like the fact we can pick your brain thanita, especially since I'm kind of mechanically challenged.

I tend not to ride with too many women 'cause the ones in my area are either wimpy or have a huge chip on their shoulder. But it's nice here. Folks are friendly. No raging flame wars either, which can suck on other boards.

So as the only female type person to have responded so far. . . keep it. :D

And woog, you may be of the male persuasion, but you sure have purty legs! ;)

[wooglin]

Flattery will get you everywhere.... :)

[slugbath]

Oops, sorry, forgot to mention that I'm a female-type too! Mmm, I guess my handle isn't particularly sex-specific, is it? :rolleyes:

andrea

[polly]

where i post most, at singletrackworld.com we don't have a segregated forum at all... but as a moderator I spend a lot of time removing images of naked women and very sexist comments from the forum...

- I think if we had a women's room it would encourage the trolls... do you have this problem at dirtrag?

[free spirit]

The forums are like the mag. Very cool. During the time I've been popping in and out here, I've not seen any problems.

peace

[Divscotty]

Keep it - Possibly some of the women like myself have been on an extended vacation.

While on vacation we hit Silver Mtn in N. Idaho. We were short on time but did get one super ride in. It was fast and dusty. My disks were blue at the bottom. I have just got to have an entire day on that mtn.

Divscotty

[thanita]

Actually, the women's room hasn't attracted any greaseballs, for the most part - it's what it's supposed to be - women discussing issues, guys with questions and input, all good. As for some of the other rooms, that may be another matter :).

Extended vacation, eh? I wish!
T

[Cyclenaut]

Hey Thanita...

The women's forum should stay! I was actually pretty excited to see it. There's a lot of testosterone out there.

I could always start a thread about being a female wrench. I get some pretty interesting responses, like the one we saw from F Ed at the race over the weekend.

Mo says the ladies have left the building? NAH!

[zzyxzz]

There should be more female wrenches.
This is of no relevance to this thread...just a passing thought.

[Cyclenaut]

Hey Zed, no argument here. The only other one I know is the shop girl from that OTHER cycling publication. And even then, they put up some picture of a chick that was obviously not a real wrench before they got around to showing her some respect with her actual picture. What an insult that was! No one holds a pedal wrench like a baseball bat, and no self-respecting wrench wears fingernail polish on a daily basis, unless of course you count grease. When I was working in the shop full time I didn't even let my nails grow.

Don't get me wrong, I can be feminine if I have to be, and even look professional for my "real" job (I now have longer nails, for one, but after this weekend they still have a buncha grease under 'em)!

The Navigators (Marty Nothstein's new team) has a female wrench. I have tool envy...I'd jump at the chance to be a pro wrench. I come pretty close when the DR folks let me clean their bikes while they beat the lard out of the Krispy Kreme folks!

[thanita]

Aha! Your identity has been revealed, Cyclenaut. I've got to say that your wrenching this past weekend was the best I've ever had at a 24 hour event (pretty much the only situation I'd have a wrench other than my own bumbling self). What was good? Knew your stuff, made our bikes happy and never got drunk and surly! Ha! Thanks from all of us . . .
T
p.s. I think it would be cool to start a thread with questions about wrenching/being a female wrench btw.

[Cyclenaut]

Thanks for your thanks!

I get into it, really I do. You can ask KB just how much I enjoy it. I really filled his ears about it before, during, and after the Snowshoe race. It helps keep me sane and gives me some respite from a job that I haven't enjoyed for a while now. These little outings are re-energizing (in a weird sort of up-all-night kind of way).

Anytime you guys need some race support, let me know! I meant it about Moab, too. I'm more than willing to give your bike the three times over during the race. Not sure what your between lap plans are but if you just need a place to store your bike let me know, I'll keep an eye on 'em!

[CRUM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cyclenaut
[B]Hey Zed, no argument here. The only other one I know is the shop girl from that OTHER cycling publication.

My wife and I had one child. Fortunately that child was a girl. And she had no chance to be anything but a shop girl. She grew up in my bikeshop. Besides being a solid Sport racer, she can tear into a repair as good as any male punk mechanic who has worked for me. And now that she is back at college, I miss her presence both emotionally and from a business standpoint. The repairs are now back to a 5 day turnaround instead of the 1 to 2 day turn we enjoyed this summer.

It took some time for her to be respected as a wrench. But she has earned it now. The gnarly dudes are not nervous when she throws their bikes on the stand to fix whatever they broke, mangled, or taco-ed. And I am guessing more than a few brought their bikes in for stupid reasons just because they thought it was cool for a "chick" to be twisting wrenches. An abnormal number of 14 to 15 year boys seem to hang around during her time at the shop, but are nowhere to be seen when she is elsewhere.

Having had her around for so many years, I never really appreciated the novelty of a girl doing repairs. To me, she was my kid and she liked working on bikes. Seemed natural to me. I have the same feelings. The fact that she is a she was beside the point. But when I listen in on conversations among the gnarly dudes regarding the latest scar on her legs or the last repair they had her do, I understand just how unique she is. And it makes me proud.

[free spirit]

Very cool!

[Cyclenaut]

Wow Crum...

Great story. Your daughter sounds like someone I'd like to know.

It's a novelty being a chick that knows how to turn wrenches. I had the good fortune of working at Wheel Life Cycles outside of Princeton. A real brains n' brawn combination: an owner with an MBA and a manager with years and years of industry experience. I'm not sure why, but they took a chance on me and taught me the ropes. It was fun for a lot of reasons, one of which was that it gave me a lot of insight into the male brain...perhaps more than I wanted sometimes!

I've gotten a lot of positive (interesting, shocked) comments about it, most recently during the Seven Springs race I wrenched for my Dirt Rag pals. There was an interloper known to the crew as F'Ed (you can guess what the F stands for). Apparently this guy has a way of trying to get under someone's skin. I actually thought his comment of "Ooo, a chick wrench, where can I get one of those?" was quite flattering.

The only negative I ever experienced was during a day at the shop when I worked there full time. I was the only one in the store, everyone else was downstairs in the warehouse. I was working on some particularly greasy part at the time (might have been a hub rebuild, if I recall). I was pretty gunked up in the process when a customer came in the store. The layout of the store was by design, set up to highlight the shop area. It was out in the open for anyone to see. Our policy was to drop everything and help the customer regardless of how involved we were. So, I put down my tools, grabbed a rag, did my best to get the majority of grease off my hands and arms, and headed across the dry deck (all of 8 feet from my workbench). As I approached the customer during the wipe down and asked if I could help him, he replied by telling me he needed to speak with a mechanic.

It's not often that I'm rendered speechless, but this was one of those few times. It took me a minute to figure out how to be nice to this guy despite his ignorance. I'm sure he wasn't intending to insult me. He just made it very obvious that he isn't scoring many points on the observe-o-meter of life.

The best I could do was to tell him that he WAS speaking with a mechanic. In my head, I had some other choice words for him. He never really did sound too confident in what I was telling him until finally one of the guys came upstairs and didn't know the answer to his question and referred him to...you guessed it, me.

Other than that one incident, and the ocassional bout of machismo that makes guys think I'm incapable, it's been an overwhelmingly positive trip.

I hope your daughter continues to wrench when she can. It's not a bad way to get attention from guys, either! ;~)

[Kim D]

I'm disturbed by something that happened at a race I did today (michaux-Terror of Teaberry). The top woman expert finisher took home less prize money than the top male. What's up with that?? And, why is it that women always get boned when it comes to the prizes? Last week, some guys took home helmets, mtb tires, jerseys, etc...I was 3rd in my age group and I got "zodiac" grips that weigh probably 5 lbs each. They would sure look cute on the handle bars of the bike I rode when I was ten.
I am not ungrateful, free is free...And I don't race for the prizes or the swag or the medals. It just stings a little, that's all.
So, please, let's keep our forum.

[free spirit]

It's like that everywhere Kim. Pay differentials wether for athletes or white collar professionals. Luckily for the localish EFTA races in New England, it doesn't matter. The prize table is loaded and you get to choose, but the guys do go first. Kinda doubt we will ever really change most of that.

[Cyclenaut]

Chivalry is dead!

:)

[Mauriceman]

Yeah, the difference in prize money/recognition is a stinger, and the official reason is that since fewer women race than men, they essentially contribute less in the way of registration fees, etc. so it's only fair that the men get a larger prize bag.

Okay, this may be true, but it is also perpetuating a vicious cycle, namely that women aren't as legit as men as racers/riders/etc. Does this matter? Well, when you combine it with the whole gamut of fewer options for women out there (lets pretend we're just talking about biking), who would be more attracted to riding - boys or girls? Uh oh, I feel a diatribe coming on.

Anyway, people (okay, mostly guys) roll their eyes when I start off on the inequities of cycling/life and it does get uncomfortable for me - after all, things don't change that quickly and there is currently a backlash against "PC" and some residual nastiness connected to anything smacking of "feminists" or "feminism" (more people than not don't really even know what this concept is, just equate it with "man hater" which is inane) but just because things are "as they've always been" doesn't mean they're right, and just because a topic makes people uncomfy doesn't mean it isn't important to address.

So yeah, I'll support keeping this site. In other words.
T;)

[Cyclenaut]

Back in the olden days the idea of a woman on a bike used to be frowned upon, since it was widely believed that by riding a woman was damaging her reproductive system Compared to then, we've come a long way, baby.

I've watched pretty intently the progress of women's sports, specifically basketball and soccer. When I was playing college ball, there were no pro leagues. I was good enough to play Division I basketball but I didn't want to bust my ass for 4 years with nothing to look forward to afterwards other than moving to Europe to play professionally. Even then the pay was next to nothing. Of course, 2 years after I graduated from college the WNBA was born. Now, teams are starting to fold, or looking to relocate to new markets to stay afloat. Women's soccer is pretty much the same.

The good news is that the general public is starting to see more and more female athletes as poster children. Just this week, Mia Hamm is on the cover of Sports Illustrated, and I'm pretty sure it's not her first time. The Women's World Cup is getting a lot of press, particularly since it's on US soil this year, and shoe companies are signing women to big contracts. That's progress, in my book.

And, in general, the concept of the athletic woman is decisively moving away from the old stereotype that she must be a lesbian (not that there's anything wrong with that). In other words, we are starting to show young girls that being tough, and strong, and fit, and athletic is all a good thing.

I'm not sure that I'll live to see the day when men and women at the top of the podium are rewarded equally. Yes I understand the official party line, but it still sucks and doesn't seem fair. I try to keep in mind that things are better than they were for my mother and even my older sister.

But, what I know is different now, and a huge step in the right direction, is the fact that I am a role model for my 11 year old nephew. He thinks that my bike riding is cool, and is constantly asking me to ride the trails with him. When boys start looking up to women, and try to emulate their athletic prowess, then the groundwork is being set for a better, more equal future for female athletes.

[polly]

i went for a ride last week, taking a male friend with me, it was the first time he had been off road on a mtb. As we approached an overgrown piece of singletrack, he dismounted
'out the way' I shouted laughing
'your not riding through it are you?'' he said...
'you'll scratch your legs - and there's stinging nettles...'
'too right' I shouted as i whizzed past him.
Then at the first steep descent - he got off and declared it unrideable - as i rode down it - leaving him speechless...

and I adjusted his gears, and put his chain back on...

challenging stereotypes can be really good fun...:D

[zzyxzz]

Too cool :D :D :D :D :D :D :cool: