The Jungle

[ironspoke]

I've read about this book for years. It is usually referenced in most high school and college history books. Well I picked up a copy recently and I'm just at the part where Jurgis gets arrested for beating the snot out of the guy who raped his pregnant wife.

Has anyone else read this book? If anyone in the USA thinks they have it bad...man this is some crazy shit. Now here are some valid reasons to never eat a hot dog again.

I dont know how it ends so please no spoilers.

[rockhound]

I have an original first edition of this book.

[davkatreb]

Never got around to reading it all the way through. But even if I did, I'd still love meat. Mmmmmmm, meat.

[fudgedit]

Ahhh- Ironspoke, I am wondering if you have picked up on the socialism as the answer to the corruption of capitalism theme yet? What are you doing? Are you converting? Immigrants treated as meat!! A book so many kids read and never get the whole message that Sinclair was putting out. It is interesting to think about how many become vegetarians because of this book, but I don' think that was Sinclair's intended purpose. It has been years since I read this book, but I have read some pretty horrible theme papers about it. (I have read some really good ones too.)

[Hand/of/Midas]

never read it. but i am vegi. but chicago hot dogs were my fav meat before.

[ironspoke]

Ahhh- Ironspoke, I am wondering if you have picked up on the socialism as the answer to the corruption of capitalism theme yet? What are you doing? Are you converting? Immigrants treated as meat!! A book so many kids read and never get the whole message that Sinclair was putting out. It is interesting to think about how many become vegetarians because of this book, but I don' think that was Sinclair's intended purpose. It has been years since I read this book, but I have read some pretty horrible theme papers about it. (I have read some really good ones too.)

My favorite period of history is just before and just after the turn of the century. The Industrial Age was in full swing and Americans were first trying to claw their way out of rigid social classes. I think part of my fascination with this period has to do with the fact that I grew up in Pittsburgh and still live about 20 miles east of the city. Mellon, Carnegie, etc were some of the true movers and shakers of this country and they all lived here.

As you are aware I'm a free market guy. That being said the unions were obviously an integral part of us emerging from this horrible system of inequality. The workers back then were totally shit on and they had no recourse. It was in essence slavery. The division was based on ignorance and language instead of skin color. These people suffered immense hardship so that we would live in a freer world a 100 years later.

I'm only about a third of the way through give or take and I'll let you know my impressions after I have finished it. No I'm not joining the other side. The America of 1906 looked nothing like the America of 2007. The opportunities are there for the taking. No it sure aint easy for someone to emerge from the ghetto or a bad school system, but hopefully the parents are there to provide some guidance. For the kids who never have a chance that is indeed a terrible waste of a human being as I believe we all have the chance to change the world here in the good old USA.

[fudgedit]

I try so hard to give my students a historical perspective on the literature that they are reading so that they can understand what was happening. I am re-reading Fahrenheit 451 for the first time since high school. Dang, if that book doesn't make more sense now then it did those twenty some years ago. It is scary at how close Bradbury is to the dumbing down of society, even if he was reflecting his observations back then. Bravo to everyone who reads books.

So, Ironspoke what other novels of that historical period might you suggest. I am always reading more modern stuff. Plus, I have to keep up on young adult literature. Some of which is really great and some is mind numbing fluff. I can't stand much more fantasy flying dragon stuff, but some of my students just eat that stuff up.

[50 Mission Cap]

I've read about this book for years. It is usually referenced in most high school and college history books. Well I picked up a copy recently and I'm just at the part where Jurgis gets arrested for beating the snot out of the guy who raped his pregnant wife.

Has anyone else read this book? If anyone in the USA thinks they have it bad...man this is some crazy shit. Now here are some valid reasons to never eat a hot dog again.

I dont know how it ends so please no spoilers.

I read in college, and I have had my students read it several times. Great book. A bit over the top at times, but I loved it my first time around. Sinclair gets a bit preachy towards the end w/ the socialism stuff, but great book. I was teaching it when I met my wife 4 years ago, she had read it and we discussed - really impressed her from what she tells me now - so read up man! I was teaching it in an AP US history class last year, and have a GREAT article about the political impact the book had - the FDA / the Meat Inspection act. PM / email (chicagoblackhawks77@gmail.com) your address and I will send you a copy.

50

[50 Mission Cap]

never read it. but i am vegi. but chicago hot dogs were my fav meat before.

Ever been to the paradise pup in des plaines? Celery salt, tomatoes, pickle, onions, relish, peppers... who would want anything else?

[Teamfubar]

Iron,

When you are done reading and digesting The Jungle you should pick up Fast Food Nation. While it isn't as eloquently written as Sinclair Lewis' book, it is amazing how the same crap is still happening. Immigrant workers with no rights and no voice, poor work conditions, etc. Almost 100 years later and we still have the same problems. I work in the grocery industry and we deal with the meat packing industry very closely. It is amazing how many recalls there are in the beef industry that the general public doesn't hear about. After the big ground beef recall in '01 or '02, the beef industry has done a great job (on their part) of keeping those recalls on the DL. Just another reason I left the "conventional" grocery business and started working at Whole Foods. Yeah, yeah, I know what most people say, the "Whole Paycheck" thing, but once a person is educated about where their food comes from, they will sacrifice something else to be able to buy food that they know FOR SURE comes from a safe place. In the two years I have worked there, we haven't had a single beef recall.

The best analogy I can make is the difference between a Chinese made Giant and a US made Moots. A person has an idea of how their Giant was made, but doesn't know for sure, but a person can go to the Moots factory, meet the 15-20 employees, see them work and the conditions, etc. When we learn where exactly our money goes, we are more willing to spend it differently for the "right" thing.

[ironspoke]

Fudge,

Probably my ultimate favorite work from that period is the Original Illustrated Sherlock Holmes by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. There was a 3 or 4 year period that I read this book virtually every night before falling asleep. During this time I read no other fiction at all. I love the style and how the language has an elevated feel to it. I love reading Watson claim something is grotesque. I love how meanings of words have changed dramatically in the past 100 years. I enjoy the occasional historical perspective when there is for instance a reference to the KKK or a city like San Francisco.

You can usually find a copy in the bargain bin at a Barnes and Noble for $5. The illustrations by Sidney Paget are great, although I read that Doyle felt that Paget made Holmes too good looking compared to how he actually envisioned his character.

Not that I would condone injecting cocaine, but the high school crowd may get a kick out of reading about Holmes and his escipades. It is classic English fiction so its appropriate, right?

[poison idea]

Read and thoroughly enjoyed it.

(assume effete, collegiate snob voice)
Conversely, IMHO, the pathos of Jurgis's family/stockyard workers in general was dampened a bit by Lewis's latent racism/classism at times (the description of eastern europeans and blacks during the strike) but, as with most older lit, one must take the good with the bad.

The social reform aspect was nice, but the stockyard atrocities are what makes it stick. Glad to be veggie. Sure does make those Earth Crisis songs seem a bit more poignant.

A great read and I recomend it to anyone but Steinbeck's socialist bent was a lil more gracefull.

[peatbog]

"A great read and I recomend it to anyone but Steinbeck's socialist bent was a lil more gracefull."--poison idea

Grapes of Wrath?

I believe Sinclair's main purpose in The Jungle was just to expose the terribel conditions in the meat plants at the time, but his socialist ideas did filter into his writing.

Still, I like meat, even hot dogs. It's all dead animal stuff--so what the heck. Dead land animals is where it's at!

Upton Sinclair also wrote a book called The Flivver King, A Story of Ford America, written in 1937 that would probably interest anyone who enjoyed reading The Jungle. It deals with man sacrificing his own personal welfare as he becomes just a "cog in the machine." And, no, I am not socialist, but the book does have some valid points even now to anyone who has worked in a factory or similiar.

[dangerousdave]

Hmmmm, my take is that its not so much a statement about the superficial tragedy of the suppressed/oppressed as it is the commonality of man- kind to continually find ways to achieve power over others and thereby suppress competition. The meat part is simply grossology window dressing, Sinclair, imo had a much darker concept that underpins the narrative.

As Spoke pointed out, conditions are the much the same from 100 years to right now... shyt, 10,000 yrs to now; nothing has truly changed in the aspect of mankinds desire to be in power and to flaunt it, use it to personal advantage, its Darwinian social evolution, and it cannot be stopped within our species lifetimes nor our great great great great great great granchildrens.

[fudgedit]

As you are aware I'm a free market guy. That being said the unions were obviously an integral part of us emerging from this horrible system of inequality. The workers back then were totally shit on and they had no recourse. It was in essence slavery. The division was based on ignorance and language instead of skin color. These people suffered immense hardship so that we would live in a freer world a 100 years later.

I'm only about a third of the way through give or take and I'll let you know my impressions after I have finished it. No I'm not joining the other side. The America of 1906 looked nothing like the America of 2007. The opportunities are there for the taking..

Actually, Spoke mentioned that things are different now than they were back then. I would tend to agree with him. There are so many opportunities for those who strive to get on top of the pack. Are there those who are stuck because of limited abilities? Surely, but most of us have the ability, just some don't have the drive.

[dangerousdave]

Ah, yeah, I guesss so, I misinterpreted what Spoke meant... I was too quick with a 25 yr old understanding and discussion of Sinclairs' themes.
Yes, general conditions of the oppressed worker have improved from blatant out and out slavery, to slavery "light" and an unconscious mental servitude to commercialism that feeds off of desire to have what one has not, again, a power struggle? of sorts? this leads to some very cool discussions, as I remember, from a wise old drunkard of a Prof. of Eng. during my junior year[s]..;) I think I had 2 or 3 of them!

Gotta go finish my outdoor fireplace, for once its not 50mph winds...:D

[ironspoke]

Well, if we just keep the topic on the USA then yes by far working conditions and opportunities have increased dramatically. Then you turn on the television and see some CNBC special on the child sex slave industry that is currently gripping many of the impoverished areas of the planet.:(

You can take any piece of fiction and compare and contrast it with whatever topic you like. For right now (again still only about a 1/3 of the way through) the themes are working conditions and opportunity or lack thereof here in this country.

Sure you can say that the media controls our thoughts and actions but that only happens if you let it happen. Hell that concept has been going on forever. I'm pretty certain you have to go back to Adam and Eve (DD...this ones especially for you ;)) to find a situation where a human being was totally unencumbered.

Lets face it....someone like Sir Richard Branson, or Steve Jobs or Steve Fossett. Are they just cogs in this machine as well? Yes and no. They have a responsibility we could never imagine yet they also have these amazing freedoms to spread good will and take kick ass vacations. Unless you live on a desert island your life is intricately intertwined with someone else. You can choose to let your daughter listen to Hannah Montana as long as you go the extra mile and make sure she also appreciates Neko Case, June Carter Cash and Lucinda Williams. We are all members of a society. In my opinion, the greatest one in the history of civilization.


Slavery 'light' here in the USA...hardly.

[poison idea]

"Slavery was not eliminated. It was expanded to cover 99% of the population"

[peatbog]

What I find amazing is how well Upton Sinclair captures the “feeling” for his subjects. Unless one has worked under conditions that makes one feel like a “slave” then it is hard to understand that feeling. I have worked there in times pasts (though nowhere near the conditions described by Sinclair in The Jungle), but was lucky enough to work myself out of the situation. I wonder if Sinclair took a job in the meat plants while researching his book? I am not sure how he could write like he did without doing so. His insight into the emotional conditions of the worker is uncanny.

While I abhor socialism, I have to agree with dangerousdave that poor working conditions have always existed and always will--in both the United States and elsewhere. And I also have to agree that many people trapped in those conditions will end up feeling like slaves their entire lives. For some, it is their own fault, but for others it isn’t. And in either case, there is no excuse for treating others poorly just to profit a select few. And it should be obvious that many of those in power really don’t care about those working for them. For example, a company may cut its health care for its employees to save itself 5 million dollars, but then pay one, just one, CEO a 10 million dollar bonus. And hard work doesn’t always pay off for those trying to improve themselves. I know people working their asses off who are getting nowhere. It may be because of lack of education (which they can not afford), lack of ability, lack of health, poor choice of jobs, whatever; but the American Dream really is not available to everyone. And while we can turn away and claim it isn’t our business, that doesn’t make the situation any different (read Charles Dickens The Christmas Carol for a starter—since Christmas just passed us by). So it is up to those living the American dream to help those who are still trying. And that, I think, is at least part of what Upton Sinclair’s point was in both The Jungle and The Flivver King. He wanted us to see spoiled lives and spoiled dreams, not so much just spoiled meat. And he stuck it "in our face" so we had to see it. However, I think it is a personal responsibility we have to help others, not a government one, as I believe Sinclair, as a socialist, thought. The only role I see government having is to protect those who are unable to protect themselves, not to redistribute wealth and such. Socialism doesn't work, and is not the answer to anything (except ruining a country's economy if that is what one is trying to do).

I also agree with ironspoke that the United States offers the best opportunity on the planet to better oneself, but I must quit now.

[50 Mission Cap]

Well, if we just keep the topic on the USA then yes by far working conditions and opportunities have increased dramatically. Then you turn on the television and see some CNBC special on the child sex slave industry that is currently gripping many of the impoverished areas of the planet.:(

You can take any piece of fiction and compare and contrast it with whatever topic you like. For right now (again still only about a 1/3 of the way through) the themes are working conditions and opportunity or lack thereof here in this country.

Sure you can say that the media controls our thoughts and actions but that only happens if you let it happen. Hell that concept has been going on forever. I'm pretty certain you have to go back to Adam and Eve (DD...this ones especially for you ;)) to find a situation where a human being was totally unencumbered.

Lets face it....someone like Sir Richard Branson, or Steve Jobs or Steve Fossett. Are they just cogs in this machine as well? Yes and no. They have a responsibility we could never imagine yet they also have these amazing freedoms to spread good will and take kick ass vacations. Unless you live on a desert island your life is intricately intertwined with someone else. You can choose to let your daughter listen to Hannah Montana as long as you go the extra mile and make sure she also appreciates Neko Case, June Carter Cash and Lucinda Williams. We are all members of a society. In my opinion, the greatest one in the history of civilization.


Slavery 'light' here in the USA...hardly.

Iron,

Forgot to mention in my email before... a few years ago some anthropologists wrote a book called "Slaughterhouse Blues" - it's a look at the meat packing industry 100 years after the jungle. Really surprised to find that nothing has really changed. W/ mechanization came unskilled laborers - mostly illegal immigrants that are completely exploited at the tyson and con agra plants (actually in states like right here in ks). Local governments welcome theses plants (and look the other way in terms of illegals) b/c of the tax revenue these plants supposedly bring in (total bs b/c local gov's completely entice the tysons of the world w/ tax breaks to come to their towns). Anyway man, I think I lent it to a student and he / she did not give it back. I would have sent it w/ the other materials I am sending but it's gone. Would definitely give you some good material for your article. Definitely look it up.

Mick

[ironspoke]

Thanks Cap

I've driven by some of those places and they certainly make you wonder what goes on behind closed doors.

So how long does it take for Tyson to "grow" a chicken? :eek:

[50 Mission Cap]

Thanks Cap

I've driven by some of those places and they certainly make you wonder what goes on behind closed doors.

So how long does it take for Tyson to "grow" a chicken? :eek:

Not sure, but they sure don't take care of their workers...

[ironspoke]

Well I finished The Jungle. I'm not sure if I would rank it up there with some of the greatest American literature, but parts of it were compelling. Where the novel succeeds is more in its message than with its style. I can see where history teachers and social studies teachers have pushed this book along more so than English teachers.


Who would Jurgis be campaigning for in 08?

[mscotch]

Gotta go finish my outdoor fireplace, for once its not 50mph winds...:D

tisk, tisk, remember, we're fighting global warming here. Besides, doesn't a fire take, gasp!!! firewood and that might mean a tree!!!
Oh well, they are renewable, ya know.
Sorry DD, just feelin' a little picky today....I gotta go get my new thread started, went out and found Babs!!! and had a few beers with him, maybe that's why I'm jabbin' at ya, it's the beer, not my fault....:D

[mscotch]

Well I finished The Jungle. I'm not sure if I would rank it up there with some of the greatest American literature, but parts of it were compelling. Where the novel succeeds is more in its message than with its style. I can see where history teachers and social studies teachers have pushed this book along more so than English teachers.


Who would Jurgis be campaigning for in 08?

WOW, you can even write between them, that's COOL!!


tisk, tisk, remember, we're fighting global warming here. Besides, doesn't a fire take, gasp!!! firewood and that might mean a tree!!!
Oh well, they are renewable, ya know.
Sorry DD, just feelin' a little picky today....I gotta go get my new thread started, went out and found Babs!!! and had a few beers with him, maybe that's why I'm jabbin' at ya, it's the beer, not my fault....:D

this is a test, I'm trying to put 2 "quotes" in a post, just ignore this...damn it, stop lookin' at it, I said don't read this,.... don't you friggin' listen!!!??? there ain't nutthin' here.
stop it!:mad:
Ok, it worked, thanks for helpin' out, I feel much better now.

[ironspoke]

WOW, you can even write between them, that's COOL!!




this is a test, I'm trying to put 2 "quotes" in a post, just ignore this...damn it, stop lookin' at it, I said don't read this,.... don't you friggin' listen!!!??? there ain't nutthin' here.
stop it!:mad:
Ok, it worked, thanks for helpin' out, I feel much better now.


Hey! Is still havent figured that out yet. Also, I like how people can bury internet pages within words without acutally having to type in the site name. Still trying to figure that one out.

[50 Mission Cap]

Ironspoke -

LMK if those materials helped at all.

50

[ironspoke]

Cap,

Yes they have in a big way. I just finished the chapter in the book and now I'm looking at some other chapters. That is a nice read. I wasnt aware of it.

The stuff that was photocopied was really discouraging. You know this is one of the realities of the world we live in. Its sad that a lot of these shenangigans still go on. The poorest people are still getting the screws in many sectors of our society.

I'll let you know when the article is finished. If its OK I'll hold on to your material until I'm finished.


Just curious if there are any fans of the "Dirty Jobs" show on Discovery. I've only seen the program once or twice. Has he ever ventured into a slaughterhouse down in say South Carolina? I venture a guess they wouldnt exactly welcome him.

[mscotch]

Hey! Is still havent figured that out yet. Also, I like how people can bury internet pages within words without acutally having to type in the site name. Still trying to figure that one out.

I learned that one TOO! (http://www.ironspoke.com).

I asked a few folks in the forum, will pass on their instructions to you. Also, as you can tell I figured out how to re-size my BOB (bike-on-bike) pic for my avatar.
wow, if nothing else, I've got to meet BABs, piss off Wiggs, flirt with mystk, find few guys that talked about riding together and maybe get to go to a freakin' Woodstock kinda bike ridin'/drinkin' thing with folks 1/2 my age (assuming of course they don't tell me it's in PA in August and it's actually in NC in June:eek:) and learn all these cool 'puter things in the past couple months, all just by messing on the DR website.
I love this country!

PS. learned how write in photos, too.....what fun!:eek:

[mscotch]

Cap,

Yes they have in a big way. I just finished the chapter in the book and now I'm looking at some other chapters. That is a nice read. I wasnt aware of it.

The stuff that was photocopied was really discouraging. You know this is one of the realities of the world we live in. Its sad that a lot of these shenangigans still go on. The poorest people are still getting the screws in many sectors of our society.

I'll let you know when the article is finished. If its OK I'll hold on to your material until I'm finished.


Just curious if there are any fans of the "Dirty Jobs" show on Discovery. I've only seen the program once or twice. Has he ever ventured into a slaughterhouse down in say South Carolina? I venture a guess they wouldnt exactly welcome him.

I've watched him as kinda background noise in motels when on the raod, kinda funny and ya can actually learn a few things. Some of the best stuff is from the folks he works with. Ho, Hum, just another day scuba diving in septic systems looking for where the damn this plugged...or some such.

[50 Mission Cap]

Cap,

Yes they have in a big way. I just finished the chapter in the book and now I'm looking at some other chapters. That is a nice read. I wasnt aware of it.

The stuff that was photocopied was really discouraging. You know this is one of the realities of the world we live in. Its sad that a lot of these shenangigans still go on. The poorest people are still getting the screws in many sectors of our society.

I'll let you know when the article is finished. If its OK I'll hold on to your material until I'm finished.


Just curious if there are any fans of the "Dirty Jobs" show on Discovery. I've only seen the program once or twice. Has he ever ventured into a slaughterhouse down in say South Carolina? I venture a guess they wouldnt exactly welcome him.

No worries. Just keep. I can always get others.