WSD Full Sus

[dds]

I'm looking at buying/building up a bike for my wife for aroun $1500 or so. So far I've found Trek Fuel 90 WSD, Santa Cruz Juliana SL, Cannondale Jekyll Feminine, Gary Fisher Cake 2-GS as complete bikes. I saw that Ellsworth, Ventana and Titus make some small frames. Are there any other companies I should look at that make frames in small sizes?

[DirtRagArt]

I think you're missing the best one...the women's specific Specialized Epic.

[stumpy]

Word of warning I learned the hard way; just because she is a woman doesn't necessarily means she needs a women's specific frame. I fell into this and bought a women's specific and got rid of it a few months later. Women specific frames generally have a shorter top tube meaning a shorter cockpit area and since I am 5'7' it didn't fit me right. Although there are women I know who do need this shorter cockpit, a lot of women don't. I really had a problem with my downhilling because of the shorter toptube. I thought it was my lack of skills but I could barrell down stuff on friend's bikes bikes that made me feel like I was going over the handle bars on my bike. I got rid of my womens' specific and bought a man's version of the same bike in the same size and love it. If I were you, I would take her to some bike shops and let her try different bikes to see if she is more comfortable on a women's specific or if a man's frame works better. Good luck.

[dds]

That is the big problem with her bike now. The TT is too long. I've tried to put smaller stems on but they upset the handling.

We live over in Italy so it's hard to tryout most of the bikes mentioned. Maybe next time we go back to the States we can hit a few bike shops.

[DirtRagArt]

Stumpy, you speak the truth! I've been doing a lot of research on frame sizing/geometry, and I'm starting to think the whole WSD thing is a farce, even if they do fit a good bit of the women out there.

DDS, what about hopping over to France or the U.K.?

[stumpy]

DA, I agree.
From what I have read, a lot of bike manufacturers make the top tube shorter for women's frams but leave the rest of the bike as is therefore the geometry is sort out of whack. Not sure if this is still true today though.

[thanita]

Any bike maker worth considering would do more than that! You know, at least paint the bike pink or baby blue. ;)

Seriously, tho, WSD is both sales pitch and reality. If you're a shorty (like me) WSD does make some sense as a starting point to try bikes out. If you're not particularly short, don't limit yourself!! Women are, in GENERAL, smaller, narrower shoulders, smaller hands, wider hips, yadayadayada BUT there is way more overlap between the sexes than any one design can address. Plus, the most important fit is the frame; you can always cut down your bars, get thinner grips and a female anatomy friendly seat for any bike, yeah?

Azzamatterafact, one of my friends recently tried out my medium Juliana, and has decided to go with the small "regular" superlight.

FYI, here's how the stats compare:

Top tube WM 21.25" S 21.5"
Seat Tube 16" 16.5"
Head angle 70.5° 70.5
Wheelbase 40.2" 40.3
BB Height 12.125" 12.125"
Head tube 3.5" 3.8"
Standover 27.3 28.75"

I call these bikes roughly equivalent size-wise; if you can ride one, you can ride the other. You can see that, in this case, the most significant difference in geometry is standover; the regular superlight stands taller all 'round.

T

[EBasil]

Echoing Thanita, it's the geometry and dimensions of the bike you should "shop". The WSD bikes might nail it for your wife, and the regular frames might. My wife is about Thanita's size, and the math and geometry put her on a regular "small" Blur or SL, rather than the Juliana. She went with the Blur and we built it out to match the top tube and cockpit dimensions of her hardtail racer, down the millimeter.

Now, if you really want to play, Titus can build their FS bikes really small, and any other way your wife wants it. Costly, to some, but dead bang perfection if you give them the right number and etc...

[DirtRagArt]

Something else to consider, though, is that frame geometry is not only linked to a person's physical measurements. Geometry is heavily influenced by the intended use of a bike, and considering that, most manufacturers are probably taking into account that there is a market for women who simply don't ride (or feel comfortable riding) in as aggressive (as in racing) a posture as most men. Hence, the slightly shorter top tube and more relaxed head tube angle.

[EBasil]

I think the shorter top tubes are related directly to frame designers' perspective on body geometry, and that more "relaxed" head tube angles are a necessity where toe overlap becomes a real issue. Even XC racing-oriented womens' bikes require the slacker head angle on the small frames, and toe overlap is not fully resolved. Those slack angles are convenient on "mellow" and "DH" style bikes, of course.

[DirtRagArt]

Hmmm...sounds like good fodder for a review of some women's specific bikes.

[thanita]

Two people - two bikes - one of each sex. Switch. Comment. How can we get more scientific?
Hm.
T

[EBasil]

As long as you get Thanita on a Fisher Genesister CAKE. I guess if you found a shrimpy little fella (similar size to a nice, petite gal, heh heh), you could contrast it to a Cake 2, which is about where the GS Cake comes into the line. The "small" GS Cake has tons of standover, and some interesting ideas about cockpit geometry.

[stumpy]

An idea for reviewing WSD bikes:
Get two bikes of the same make, model, componentry, size, etc and the only difference should be is one bike is WSD and the other bike is the traditional design. For example, Specialized makes WSD and traditional Epics. Have two or three people (preferably female) ride both bikes and give her comments about each bike. To make it more interesting, don't let them know which bike is the WSD and which one is the traditional design. You will probably have to find women of different builds, sizes, etc. Even though two women are the same height, one may have short legs and long torso or vice versa. Anyway, just a thought. I would be very interested in reading an article about this topic.

[thanita]

Blind tests are always good, but it's easy to tell which models are wsd and which aren't - manufacturers haven't gotten away from color stereotypes, sadly or funnily enough, eh?
Optimally, multiple people would test EVERY bike, unfortunately, we (and, it seems, no one else) lack the people and/or time. But an idea we've considered, too . . .
And, like Jeff said earlier, you've got to consider riding style as well; so many matches to make, that in the end it would be hard to draw a line b/w objective and subjective info . . . guess I'm just thinking out loud.

BTW, Stumpy: we are always happy to entertain suggestions AND definitely want to hear about what you'd like to see more and/or less of in the mag, so thanks!!
T:rolleyes:

[RacerK]

My $0.02, as a former shop rat who has fit (or attempted to fit) quite a few women on bikes:
One generalization that can be made about women's anatomy differences is that we tend to have longer legs and a shorter torso relative to most men. ("Tend", "most", you know, not everybody is like that.) Thus the shorter top tubes and slacker head tube angles of women's specific bikes can help.
However, one problem not addressed (that I know of) is the angle of the seat tube; it seems women often end up having to shove the seat back as far as it will go on a smaller or women's frame to get the correct distance between seat and bottom bracket, horizontal-wise. If your knees are too far forward relative to your ankles it can cause knee problems at worst, and a loss of power at best. Although this isn't as much of an issue on MTB's when you're moving all around anyway...
My advice? Just make sure the frame isn't too big!

[DirtRagArt]

Originally posted by RacerK
However, one problem not addressed (that I know of) is the angle of the seat tube; it seems women often end up having to shove the seat back as far as it will go on a smaller or women's frame to get the correct distance between seat and bottom bracket, horizontal-wise.

This is true for many small frames (whether they be for men or women).

[SteveM]

My wife is 5.2 and light build, she rides occasionally but isn't an obsessive like me !, she has a 13" Marin Pallisades Trail, circa 1994. Over the years we have tried all sorts of mods to make the bike more comfortable to ride, shorter more upright stems, riser bars cut narrower, lady specific seats, LX brake levers (which are great for small hands) suspension seatpost, the bike is almost right and she can ride for an hour or two in relative comfort, BUT last year we bought my eldest daughter a 15" WSD Specialized Rockhopper which she has already grown out of !.

Guess what ?, they swapped bikes and now Janet is happier than ever, actually wants to get out riding as soon as the good weather comes, the WSD bike fits her perfectly, she is comforatble and feels in control which is something she never felt before, of course Hana doesn't give a damn and just gets on and rides the Marin with the seatpost further out, she's going to be tall (already taller than her mum).

So, what am I saying here ?, well don't dismiss WSD bikes, they can and do work, and as stated by others here, the best thing to do is try different sizes even if it means a trip abroad, getting the right size is important (I wish we'd done it years ago) so your SO will WANT to ride it rather than feeling she HAS to ride something that doesn't fit and isn't comfortable.

Good luck ;-)