Disc Brakes and Tubeless wheels

[jimilton80401]

This is at the risk of starting a flame war on the subject:
What are informed opinions about disc brakes and tubeless tires?
By informed, I mean that you've had real world experience with both systems and actually chose one or the other. I am ignorant on both matters, but looking at the facts, this is what I see:
Disc Brakes: More absolute stopping power in a wider range of conditions BUT, heavier, more complex, less user serviceable on the trail, discs expensive to replace if they get damaged, need to be bled, etc
Tubeless: Better rolling performance/traction at low tire pressures, BUT, heavier, more expensive, a b*tch to remove from a rim (on the trail repairs more difficult), IF one does flat, then most likely you'll be adding a standard tube anyways until you finish the ride and can patch the tire, lose lots of air by seepage.
I live in the dry Rocky Mtn west. We hardly ever have to deal with consistently wet conditions. Lots of sharp rocks on dry, scrubby trails and high speed downhills are the norm out this way. The trails can get loose and sandy during the dry summer months.

Jim

[a2psyklnut]

Can't speak of the tubeless tires, but what I've heard from friends it's not worth the extra money yet. Note I said, "Yet".

Regarding discs, I have 2 bikes one with and one without. Been riding the one with for a year and a half. Maintenance isn't any more or less between discs or vee's. The most I have to do is adjust them in as the pads wear out, and this is a simple turn of an allen wrench. I've never had to re-bleed them and setting them up isn't as hard as people want to make you think. Stopping power is above and beyond the vee's. Plus, if you taco your wheel, you can smash it almost straight and still ride home with brakes, try doing that with vee's. The pads don't wear out any quicker than regular pads, and only cost a couple of dollars more. I would have no hesitation in getting another set. Regarding the weight, I'm not a weight weenie and would give up a little extra weight for the performance benefits.

Just my 2 pennies.
l8r

[MTBMike]

Jim,
I was talked into getting tubeless on the last bike I built.I got a top end type.I can't begin to tell you how disappointed I am in them.I rode on tubes in similar conditions as you named and had no flats, at all in a year or more.I was using slimed tubes though.The problem has been pinch flats.I was told to increase my pressure which I did (44psi)and I still pinched.I'm not a heavy rider.I'm only 135 pounds,but do tend to hit hard.Still I believe these tires should hold up.I'm looking to trade or sell mine.As far as discs,the weight is well worth the trade off.More confidence,being able to go into the turn almost to it's apex before feathering the brakes are just a few of the things that I've experienced.Being on some long downhills,your hands will not cramp either.The overall best upgrade I ever made.

[KENNEDIE]

Well said regarding disc brakes, killer argument, especially having brakes with a taco'd rim. I've been there and am of the stomp it straight enough school. The idea of having brakes while limping the rest of the ride is good.
I do like the feel of V-brakes and still use em though they're going away brake by brake. I think cable discs have the most potential. Tough stopping power with more modulation. Not AS instantaneous as hydraulic, but I really try to avoid skidding, so less is more in my case. Maybe I got slow fingers. Probably more a matter of preference at this stage. In my experience, modern equipment, even cheap shit, works in at least an acceptable way. That's what's cool about it now. We're able to tweak our bikes to more precise degrees than ever.
And tubeless tires are cool. They function well, but my unofficail survey has told me that most people, even the fast guys I've seen lately, are using tubeless primarily for racing and tubes for everything else. I've been riding them lately and I do find myself thinking about the whole flat tire thing. I see it as kind of a pain in the ass, the tightness of the tires and the hole detection and stuff. But they do work traction and low pressure wise. Good on special occasions, maybe.

[Browne]

Joel's got a good point on the discs.

My take on it is that it's a disadvantage for a lot of people cause they don't have the frame mounts. I put one on the front of my hardtail. that's the brake I use the most, and if I have it on the back, I just lock it up more than I like to.

If you're considering it, I'd say go one wheel at a time. that way, you're not stuck with a bad investment.

However, I've been riding some Paul brakes and levers on my test Vicious Cycles singlespeed, and I have to say that I didn't know you could get such fine braking on a V-brake.

As far as tubeless, I don't see flats as all that big of a problem. Sure, I'll get five in a week, builld up my flat-karma, and then run smooth for three months. For around Pittsburgh, there are just a lot of thorns that can be hell on tubeless flat detection and repair. Only ridden them for a short while, though. Availability of a nice 2.2 tire seems kinda lame, 'cept for the Kenda Kinetics. I like them, and they make 'em in Tubeless....

-michael

[Subscription Guy]

I find V-Brakes sufficient for my "cross country" hardtail rider, occassional XC racer type of lifestyle. Simple and very effective, especially with creamic rims. Seems discs are media darlings, but I'm holing on to my V's.

I've been riding Bontrager Race Lite Tubeless wheels for a year and a half, an I'm sold on em. For hardtail riders like me, decreasing tire pressure by 3 or 4 or 5 psi can really fine tune the ride (softens it nicely) -- Not to mention superb traction. I've not had problems with air loss via seepage. My air loss problems were due to pinholes (thorns I guess), which Slime fixed perfectly.
Yeah, tubeless tires are heavy, but innertubes run 150 grams. Since I like agressive knobbies and mega traction, I don't count grams anyway (however, semi-slick tubeless are available those obsessed with weight and rolling resistance.
A few select tires have been difficult to mount, but the last pair of Conti's went on like butter. I've had a problem with tube patches not working on tubeless tires, but I see that specific tire patches are now available (have to get me some), in the meantime I"ll Slime them.
For more info on the Bontrager system, read my review in Dirt Rag #89.

[Xteife]

As far as tubeless tires go, I didn't want them when I saw that my Giant NRS XTC 1 came with them (UST's), but I had no choice. So far, I've been riding them for about 5 months and am only disappointed about the tread. No loss of air pressure from sitting and only one hole so far, which I patched using a regular ole inner tube patch dowsed with glue. Surprisingly, it worked and has been holding for some time now. Oh, also had no issues removing/remounting the tire.

However, looking at the initial cost of the rims and tires, I would never have upgraded my old bike to them. Save a load of cash and check out www.notubes.com. Stan's system allows you to convert your existing wheels and tires to tubeless for under $60 (I think). I am in no way affiliated with Stan, but have heard a few people rave about the system, and would definitely try it before laying out gobs o' ca$h for UST's or the like.

Good luck.

[pmweller]

I never would have thought to have disc brakes or tubeless, but the bike I bought came with discs and tubeless standard.

I have a 2001 Giant NRS1.

The NRS 1 came with Mavic tubeless rims and Hutchinson Python tires.
It also came with Hayes Hydraulic disc brakes.

I love both the disc brakes and the tubeless tires.

TUBELESS TIRES! I spent most of the year with the Pythons. I haven't been happy with them. When I was at Snowshoe, the mud was too much for them. So I purchased some Hutchinson Scorpions from the LBS down there.

Now I'm back in Maryland, it's been dry for a while, but I still have on the Scorpions.
(Most sites don't recommend the Scorpions for hard pack. But I gotta tell ya, they roll just fine.)

After a year of riding, I've just recently gotten my first flat on the trail with the tubeless tires. I was on a rarely traveled trail that had *a lot* of thorns. I happened to pick on up. (By the time the tire was flat, I was close to the end of my ride, so I pumped up the tire a whole bunch to get back to my car.)

I've been very happy with the tubeless. I haven't had nearly the amount of problems that other people report. I do lose some PSI if the bike sits for a few days. This usually doesn't exceed 8 psi. I weigh in at about 140. I run them at 29 psi.

My boyfriend recently went tubeless on his bike. He loves them. He weighs in at around 190. He is able to run as low as 42 psi without trouble. (And he has a reputation for being hard on bikes.)

THE DISCS! What can I say! They are the best thing since, well, whatever was the last best thing. I recommend hydraulic if you can afford it. The Hayes are pretty sweet. I had the bike shop switch out the Hayes levers for Razor Rock Stiffy levers. These are my "one finger friends." I go through a set of pads about every 6-8 months. I haven't had many problems. I wouldn't know the first thing about bleeding the brakes, so I had the bike shop do that as a yearly maintenance thing.

If you are wanting to try one of these - disc brakes or tubeless tires - I'd recommend trying the disc brakes first. Shimano's XT discs are supposed to be pretty good. And I think they are less expensive than the Hayes.

Hope this helps.

[DirtRagArt]

Thus far I have two problems with tubeless tires.

1. When you flat on a trail and install a tube, you've still got to get enough air pressure (usually over 60lbs) in there to seat the bead. With a mini-pump, I've found it nearly impossible.

2. I have been thus far unsuccessful in patching tubeless tires, though I've only tried twice.

[CRUM]

When V-brakes came out and shoved the Cantilever brake into oblivion, I was positive and still am that they were just a solution looking for a problem. V-brakes were just another unecessary improvement to the bicycle. And while I had to deal with them as a mechanic, I never put them on my bikes. I felt that properly adjusted canti's stopped just as well, did not wear out as fast, and stayed in adjustment better.

Then came along Discs. Again, the retro-grouch in me kept them away from my own rides, while at the same time, I dealt with them and their idiosyncracies on a daily basis as a wrench. Well, that was then and this is now. Now, I will never willingly go back to any rim brake system. I gladly put up with the higher expense, fussier set up and maintaining rituals that are inherent with Disc Brakes. They offer so much more control in all conditions that my riding has definitely improved. I am faster, smoother, and more confident when facing a braking emergency.

That said, Discs have their own particular set of nit picks that can make them maddening to keep tweaked perfect. When someone trys to tell you the rotors very rarely get bent, it is someone just passing down the myth, or they are lying. If you ride hard, your rotors will get tweaked. And learning the patience to straighten them is beyond the abilities of many. But they can be straightened. I do it all the time. As to the expense of new rotors. Some are stupid expensive and some aren't. My favorite replacement 160mm rotor is the standard Shimano XT/LX one. They come in at least 1/2 the price of the Avid, and seem to work just fine.

The price of pads is all over the place. The durability factor is also. Many knock off pads do a great job, but can be a pain to install on some brakes. Generally, the higher durability, a slight decrease in pucker power will be the result. But decreased braking power is sometimes a good thing with some of these brakes. While it may take a marginally harder pinky pull to lock things up, there is usually a resulting increase in modulation. And the pads will last much longer.

I don't ride tubeless yet. But I sell and install them. I also have sold and installed Stan's notubes systems. Without the hole filling liquids in them, it is a crap shoot out there. They seem to flat as much as tubed tires. If you are prone to flats, then maybe tubeless is not for you. Again, I feel they are a solution looking for a problem.